Transcript 0:00 Welcome back to Newcomers People, where I explore what it means to be an immigrant with immigrants like myself. Today, I'm talking with Kelly Boye, who moved to Canada twelve years ago 0:10 and then broke the internet by saying, "Hey, folks, I'm leaving to the-- for the States." Hmm. The ICC calls that thing the leaky bucket, where people come to Canada, 0:28 stay here for a bit, and then move out. Like, i-it's, it's bittersweet for me. I'm happy for folks like him who decide like, "Yeah, I'm done." Like, I wanna, I wanna go try out other things. 0:43 But I'm also sad for Canada itself 'cause that's talent leaving. I mean, isn't that what immigration is all about so-- in some extent for a country? You bring people in, 0:53 and they help the country become a much better nation for those coming and those, the unborn. But yeah, let's get to his story where he says why he's going and where we compare America to the States 1:11 and try to answer if is this an unfair com-comparison when we say America and the States in terms of size and the rest. Let's get to it. [upbeat music] You know, a couple of 1:31 weeks or months ago, I think you broke the Canadian internet [chuckles] on LinkedIn. [laughs] I did. Yeah, with this interesting post, you know, and that you're leaving Canada. 1:43 And I think someone, someone made a parody of it and also broke the internet. I, I think I saw someone make a parody of it, not the person that copied you. 1:52 Someone made something that was like he-- but his one was like he was staying, which I found, I found that interesting. Mm-hmm. But you've-- you, you were here twelve years. Yeah. That for me, like, that's a while. 2:02 I'm, I'm just four years in here, like I'm getting my... So you're twelve years. 2:07 So what I'm trying to just kind of understand is, so if you think about like when you moved, you know, how it was and w-- now, now, now you're there, you're deciding to leave, 2:16 what are the biggest differences that you've seen over that time which kinda led you to kinda saying, "Okay, I think I wanna go try it out somewhere else"? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [chuckles] Uh, that's an interesting question. 2:27 Um, you know, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. Um, I think it's good when we share our ideas and knowledge just so we can help inspire someone- Yeah. 2:35 -or just push someone to actually do something they wanna do, right? Yeah. To show them it's possible. Yep. But like you said, I, I decided to leave Canada after almost twelve years. 2:46 Uh, I came to Canada as an international student to, you know, to study. I did my undergrad in Canada. Loved it. The initial idea was come to Canada, study, you know, bounce back home. 2:56 But I finished, I got into the system, and I just loved it, right? Uh, Canada has a lot to offer. Very polite people. Um, the, the weather is nice. Sometimes I miss winter. 3:06 The truth be told, I actually miss winter right now. [laughs] Are you serious? The weather is nice. I miss Timmies. I, I, I need a Tim Hortons right now, double double. I, I love Tim Hortons. I love the people. 3:16 Very, very diverse, multicultural. You get to try different food, meet different kind of people. And the, the landscape, my goodness, you know, traveling from the west to the east- Yeah. -it's beautiful. 3:27 So I love Canada for that. And when I came, I know I said something in my post that, uh, the Canada I came has changed. For the better? I'm not sure, right? Question mark there. 3:39 Uh, when I came at that time, you know, housing was more affordable. Um, access to jobs were more affordable. Yes, it wasn't as much people as we have right now. Um, 3:50 then you can, you know, finish school, get a job, and go buy a house, you know, for maybe three hundred, four hundred thousand dollars. If it's expensive, five hundred K. 4:00 But these days, you know, uh, good luck if you find any of that. Yeah. But, but Canada still remains, like I said, remains my home. It was lovely, the environment, the people. Canada gave me everything. 4:12 It gave me my first shot at anything. My first real job, my first real relationship, my first car, you know, my first house. You name it, Canada gave me everything, right? My whole family lives in Canada right now. 4:23 That's how important Canada is to me. But as I continue to grow in Canada professionally, but also from an entrepreneurial point of view, um, I work as a project manager. 4:33 I'm a licensed engineer, so I work in this innovation technology space. So I'm always at the forefront of, you know, cutting-edge technology. And because of that, I am fortunate where I am mentoring and coaching people. 4:44 I am trying different business ideas to see what sticks. And so far so good. I still have businesses in Canada. 4:50 But I got to a point where I, I started running into a brick wall in terms of what I wanted to do, uh, from a-- both from a professional point of view, but also from a career point of view. 5:00 Because for-- let's talk about professionally. I got to a point where I had enough experience. I was doing okay, actually. 5:06 I was, I was doing, I was doing okay in Canada, but I knew there was more because when I look across, you know, the border, my peers there had less experience or qualification than me, were like earning twice as much as me. 5:17 I'm like, "How is that even possible?" Right? Yeah. So I knew there was this gap, and how do I close that gap? The truth is, I started closing that gap eventually, but I knew there was still a long way to go, right? 5:26 For example, you look at Canada, someone of my qualification in Canada, the truth is you wouldn't make more than two hundred K. In fact, you wouldn't make more than a hundred and fifty grand, right? 5:38 But you come across the border, right? They're throwing two fifty grand to you immediately, right? So i-it gets you thinking like, "Huh? W-why is it like this?" 5:46 And then from an entrepreneurial point of view, it's more like, okay, I wanna do big stuff. I wanna try stuff. You know, I'm a generalist. I break stuff as I go, right? [laughs] And 5:56 access to, to funding, to capital was just not there. Yes, we have this grant system in Canada where everyone has to go through this grant system- Yeah. -but I don't think it's sufficient. 6:05 Oh, trust me, don't get me started. I've won grants myself. Me and my team, we've won grants. 6:09 However, it's very limited, the competition is fierce, and I've actually gone through some grants whereIt's not a fair process. 6:16 What I realized quickly is you can actually put in, uh, a very solid application, but just because your application came maybe a week before it closes, they're actually not gonna read that gra- uh, that application. 6:27 They tend to read the first couple o- wa- uh, people that actually apply first. Oh, wow. If you notice, most people that win grants are the ones that are, that submitted first. Oh, wow. 6:34 It's, it-- That's the system, right? I know people are gonna hate me for saying that- [laughs]... but that is the system. So if you see a grant, app- like put in a good application, but apply early. 6:43 That is your chance to win. But i- if you put in a solid application towards the end, forget about it. 6:48 I've actually had emails sent to me like, "Hey, well, sorry, you sent in your application late, uh, uh," not late, like later. Uh, "Strong application, but, you know, try applying next ye- next year." 6:57 So that grant system is not sufficient. Five thousand here, ten thousand dollars here. If you run, um, a very high, uh, intensive computing startup, you can blow through twenty, fifty grand in a weekend. 7:10 So it's nothing, right? Um, I'm grateful for what I've received, but I think we need to dream bigger. But on the other side, I also think... I, I like to stop myself and say, "You know what? Canada is just what? 7:22 Thirty, forty million people, right?" The US is over three hundred million people. Yeah. It's like ten, you know, ten percent. Like maybe trying to compare what... 7:29 We're trying to compare like orange to watermelon here, right? Yeah. Um, but I, I just feel there's a little bit more that can be done in terms of the policies to just encourage like small businesses, startups. 7:39 We have the brightest minds here, like there's University of Toronto, there's Waterloo. We have the brightest mind here, like BlackBerry started here. AI, like one of the grandfather of AI, in Toronto. 7:49 So there's a lot of very intelligent people in Toronto, in, in Canada as a whole, and I think we need to start creating policies and systems that would encourage people to start stuff, but also fund them. 8:00 Bring in those investors from the US, right? Bring those investors globally. So for me, like I said, I ran into a brick wall. All right. 8:08 I'm sort of struggling a little bit, uh, but I'm a big believer of if you're trying to do something great, go to places where you're surrounded with the same kind of people and the environment like feeds you and you feed off the energy. 8:21 And that's why I decided to pack up my bags and then moved across to Silicon Valley because the energy out here is just different. People-- Yeah, everyone is working full-time jobs, but people are just hungry. 8:30 They're creating stuff, they're building stuff, they're trying stuff, they're breaking stuff. That's what I love. So, um, not sure where this journey is gonna take me to, but I'm excited. 8:39 Part of it is scary because, again, I'm- Of course... starting all over again. Of course. I feel like an immigrant, right? [laughs] Again. So but on this side, so far so good. You know, weather is good. 8:49 Uh, the people are actually okay compared to, you know, California is a li- more liberal state, so I think people are also friendly here. So I think that's a plus for sure. 8:58 But there's a couple of things that are new to me where I'm like, "Oh, okay. I never really thought about that." 9:01 And the funny thing is I've traveled the US like every year, but I've never really stayed more than like a week, two weeks. So now I'm seeing it in different like, like- Yep. Oh, yep. "Oh, I never really saw that." 9:10 Um, something happened to me, uh, two days ago where, um, I was hanging out with, uh, TechCrunch, and it was late. I had to go eat, and I walked into the restaurant. 9:20 I bought some food, and this burger they, they handed me, this Philly burger, I'm like, "Goodness, now I understand why Americans are huge people." Not just fat, like huge, right? 9:31 Because just the food they eat, like the portion is massive. It, it feels like they just took the, the chicken breast, dipped it inside the bottom of the oil, and just brought it out like, "Here you go. 9:40 Here's your food." [laughs] I'm like, "Oh, I need to watch my waistline here," right? So [laughs] but so far so good, right? 9:47 So that was the Canada I came to and, you know, like I said, and that's me leaving, deciding to pack up my bags saying, "All right, it's time for a new adventure. 9:55 It's time for me to actually go push myself and do, and do more, and get myself into an environment that would actually push me beyond my, my comfort zone or my limits." 10:03 You k- you know, and, and, and great point there because, you know, I, I was in a conversation with some- someone yesterday, and we talked about... I asked him a question where I said, I said, "I..." 10:11 And this is me playing devil's advocate. I don't know what the answer is. Yeah. 10:15 And you kind of talked a bit about it in terms of like sometimes I feel like are we just, are we-- When we're in Canada, is the problem that because we are neighbors to America- Mm-hmm... 10:25 then we are always comparing ourselves to them, you know? You know that thing, you know it's a first, a human thing, so we just- Yeah... compare ourselves to them. 'Cause you're beside America, so you're like, "Oh, yeah. 10:35 Well, that's the co- Why are we not like them?" But then you- Yes... and like you mentioned, three hundred million, we are thirty, forty million people still growing. Yeah. 10:43 This still doesn't mean that there are not things that we can do better. Like there are things I think we can do better as a country, whether it's thirty, forty million people. Mm-hmm. 10:50 You know, but then the guy, man, he said something really interesting. His name is Ben Hsu. He runs a business called Capita. Very brilliant dude. He said there's something else to think about. 10:59 Like if you think about it from how both countries were founded- Mm-hmm... Americans, we are the ones who were disloyal to the monarchy. Yeah. To the Brits, yeah. 11:09 And they moved to that side, and they fought the war, and they built. And the guys that were here were the ones who were loyal to the monarchy. Correct. So founding principles, from a founding principles point of view, 11:22 he-- the guy said something. America- It's a different ball game... is the greatest startup on Earth. Agree. Yeah. Yeah, agreed. And George Washington was the, I think that's his name, right? Or was the... 11:31 Or that's the name of the guy, like he was the- The, the president, yeah. He was the founder of the greatest startup on Earth. 11:35 America is the greatest startup on Earth, and which is why, which is why the energy there is different because really America was a startup. Mm-hmm. 11:45 You know, and but then the question you're now saying is that but we're, when we're this side, can't we just take some of those, that energy and just- Yeah... 11:53 apply it to, to how we do things, you know, because [lip smacks] we can't keep losing people. I mean, do you know Clay? Clay? Clay? I'm not sure I do. Clay. 12:06 He's one of the, he's one of the hottest- Maybe if I see the face. Yeah, he's one of the hottest startups in... One of the hottest startups- Clay... in, in SF right now. And across the world, I think. Mm-hmm. Okay. 12:15 I just- Let's see... I heard yesterday that the dude was CanadianOh, there's so many Canadians out here. So many And I'm like- Yeah... and I'm like, and I'm like, "What?" Yeah. 12:24 The company I worked for, I thought I was the only Canadian. When I walked in, they're like, "Oh, that guy's a Canadian, that guy's a Canadian." 12:29 I'm like, "Oh, there's a lot more, there's, there's a lot more of us here," right? So lots of Canadians, yeah, out here. Yeah. I saw something on, on LinkedIn the other day. 12:37 So some-- I think it's a Founders Lounge stuff. Yeah, it happened in SF. And the guy was saying that where are all the other students? Twenty percent of the kids that applied for that were from Waterloo. Oh, yeah. 12:51 Twenty percent. I believe that. And, you know, he was saying, "Where are the other kids?" All I was seeing when I saw that thing was that is talent that is being hoovered up. Mm-hmm. They've paid for school fees here. 13:06 They've been taught on Canadian soil, then they move to the US, and all we, all they get, all they, all we get of them is when they visit because literally they go there and pay taxes. 13:17 They'll go there, build businesses, and pay taxes there. Correct. And so it's like it's an economic problem. Like we can talk about it or we can use fancy words and stuff. Yeah. It's an economic problem. 13:31 That's why I-- Like I, I, like I, like you said, I believe the grant system is good for certain things. Mm-hmm. But we need to build a system where the market 13:42 punches you in the face and says, "You don't know what you're doing," or the market gives you a hug and says, "You know what you're doing," and we back the winners. Like we keep backing winners. Mm-hmm. And that way 13:55 what you g- what you kind of kick that off is then you-- the innovation cycle just starts. It's almost like it's like pouring fuel- Yeah... you know, because the market- Fuel itself. Yeah... 14:02 yeah, the market is, the market is saying, "Hey, Dosil doesn't know what he's doing. Shut down that podcast. Kelly is the one who's doing the right thing." Or, "Kelly, yeah, he, he has, he has money." Let's fund him. 14:10 Yeah, let's fund him. Yeah. Absolutely. So, uh, I agree with your, um, while Canada is the best country, love it, it's still my home. I'm still gonna be visiting Canada like, you know, maybe every other month. Visiting. 14:21 [laughs] My guy. Um, but I think Canada got the worst of capitalism and the worst part of socialism. That's, that's how I put Canada. 14:31 Got, we've got so many monopolies in Canada like, you know, a lot of the companies, you know, the Rogers, the Bells, the, um, the family-run Loblaws, you know. Those, those are the, what's it called? The monopolies. 14:46 And then we've got the worst part of socialism [chuckles] as well. I'm not sure, but I agree with you. I think policies would change a lot of things. 14:52 Policies that will favor startups, policies that will fa-favor small businesses, policies that will bring in investors, poli-policies that will say, "Hey, investor, you can bring your money, we won't tax you," right? 15:01 "Hey, as opposed to spending that one million dollars in US, bring it to Canada, I won't tax you." Or, uh, "If you make a profit, we'll only tax you a very small percentage." 15:10 Those kind of policies would encourage, you know, investors to come out, right? So I think policy change would help us stop the leaking basket. There's actually a report out about this where- Yeah, yeah. 15:20 I even saw that... uh, I think it's called the leaky, leaky basket. I see. Yeah, yeah. Daniel Kahnan. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, yeah. 15:24 So, so that would help in terms of stopping that leaky basket because the truth is if I'm in Canada, and I can maybe not earn exactly like what my peers earn in the US, but maybe close enough, right? Mm-hmm. 15:36 And housing is afforning-- uh, affordable, right? And I can get decent access to capital to like start a business and run a startup, why am I moving? Yeah. Like why? Like what am I moving for? Why am I moving? Exactly. 15:48 What am I moving for? 15:49 So, so those are the things that need to happen where people are just like, "No, I don't think I can stay here, and it's gonna take me five, 10 years to get to where I need to get to, or I can move, and it will take me maybe two or three years." 16:01 You know, you know, look, what I-- I've never said this on the show before. I only, I only say this to friends, uh, so I'll probably say it. So I see you as a friend, I'll say it to you. 16:10 I don't know why I'm saying it to you, but yeah. So the... I s- I worked in SF or in a s- an SF startup when I just moved to Canada for like almost two years plus. Okay. Then I moved to a Canadian business. 16:27 I took a 40K pay cut. So- Wow... I took a 40K Canadian pay cut to make that move. Wow. I moved for certain reasons, some things I wanted to learn and stuff like that. Yeah. But I took a 40K pay cut. 16:44 It was a 40K pay cut. That makes absolutely no sense. And I, I, you know, I appreciate my wife because she un- she allows me to try out things. Yeah. I'm now on my own doing the-- building this podcast. 16:59 I wouldn't do that without my wife. You know? Yeah. I, I can imagine that there's some people who-- partners who would be like, "What are-- Are you okay? What are you trying to do? What, what are you doing?" 17:06 Why would you do that? Yeah. Like, "Why would you do that?" I have friends who told me I was silly. But again, I mean, life's a journey. 17:15 But I took a 40K pay cut just because I said I was resigning from a role in a, in an SF startup- Mm-hmm... to work in a Vancouver business. Business, yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, I totally get it. I, I totally understand. 17:32 It's, it's just, uh, y- you know, we touched on are we actually comparing maybe apples to- Oranges... you know, pineapples or... Yeah. Yeah. So there's a bit of that. Obviously, the currencies are different, right? Yeah. 17:43 The Canadian currency is a bit weaker than the US. Um, so there's, there's that play there. The US market is obviously like 10 times bigger than the Canadian market. Yeah. 17:51 So the truth be told, the more I start reviewing the two countries, I'm like, oh, okay, maybe we're, we're not doing Canada any favor when we try to compare. 18:00 Um, but like you said earlier, let's create our own policies that would actually favor us, right? Favor the people in here, right? Uh, if, if let's say we say, okay, you know what? 18:08 Forget the US, for example, let's just focus on Canada. What can we do about Canada where, you know, businesses will pay where? 18:14 Which means in terms of the, the, the, the taxes, the businesses, and the individual pay would be less. 18:20 I think it would encourage businesses to pay more.If the infrastructure is there for people to live, like housing and everything's affordable, that means people can live more decently. Mm-hmm. 18:28 Those kind of things, I think if they're available within these 30, 40 million people, I think a lot more people will feel much better as opposed to, "Let me pack up and move." Yeah. 18:36 Let me find, let me find something and say it. So I, I wanna read something to you. Her interview comes out before yours. Okay. This month. Her name is Ash. She moved from Calgary to New York. Oh, okay. 18:50 And let me just read what-- something she has. Um, sorry, let me just-- I want to find it, where she says, how she-- what did she put it? "I love Canada, but Canada doesn't have the resources for me to thrive." Mm. 19:08 Mm. Word. Word. Yeah, I understand what you mean. "A-and I need the nurturing which comes with resources, which look like money, capital, talent, ecosystem." Mm. "It looks like if I go outside, 19:24 I can probably run into someone who's doing insanely cool things and find someone to collaborate at some point." Yeah. "And it's really hard for me to do that in Canada." Yeah. 19:34 "There are ecosystems in Toronto and Vancouver, and I'm sure they're great, but there's a reason why they call it the brain drain of Canada. S-most Waterloo kids go to San Francisco in tech." Absolutely. Absolutely. 19:46 I've worked with a couple of them, so I, I know exactly what you're saying. Yeah. It's Canada. There's nothing more we can do there. [laughing] [laughs] Like it's-- it, it... I don't know. 20:00 Like it's-- we talk a lot about it, but I-- you know, let's not-- let's stop bashing this other country. [chuckles] I love it. Let's stop bashing it. It seems like we're bashing too much. 20:09 Like you said-- I mean, like you said, I feel like there's, there's also the apples and oranges thing, whereas Canada- Mm-hmm... is a very different beast. It's a different beast on its own. 20:17 Fou-fou-founding principles, a ton of things. The-- I think for me is the thing I just want is, can we just, can we just show that we're actually moving forward and doing things? Yeah, 'cause there are- Mm-hmm... 20:25 things that we do, you know, there's-- like for example, I h- like, um, this is my last now say, I hate the fact that there are courses out in schools teaching people how to apply for grants. I hate that there's that. 20:36 Like I, I, I hate that. [chuckles] I h- I h- I hate-- I don't like using the word hate, but I hate that- Yeah... there are courses out there that teach people how to apply for grants. Oh. Because it tell-- it's a thing. 20:47 It means that it's a systemic thing that is in there- It's a systemic thing. Yeah. Yeah... that it's, oh, it's one way. It's a one- This is how it works... it's one way. Yeah. It's, it's, it's work to do. I'm like, no. 20:56 Mm-hmm. This- It has to be different. Yeah. But then let's go to you now. Mm-hmm. Deciding to leave, like was it, was it easy? Was it hard? Like how [laughs] 21:12 like how did you-- how, how long did it take you to decide to go? Like how long, how long did it take you to craft that LinkedIn post? 21:19 That's actually what I'll be trying to say because I, I read that post and I'm like, I read it twice actually. Yeah. Then I left it. I came back to it three days later. I opened-- 'cause I saved it. I read it again. 21:28 Yeah. I was reading it. I said, "This guy wrote this post probably five, six times, deleted it, wrote it again, wrote it, wrote it." 21:35 Wrote-- like, 'cause I was reading, I was like, like ev- 'cause every single word in there- Yeah... was picked carefully. And so I was like this-- that's why I said I had to interview you. 21:45 Like this post, th- like it was like, it was a please understand me oh. [laughs] Yes. Yes. That's how it felt. [laughs] Yes. Yes. Um, uh, w-was it hard? First and foremost, 21:58 let, let me just say this, it, it wasn't easy, right? But I, I wouldn't say it was too difficult. Was it hard? Yes. 'Cause my whole life is in Canada, right? I've got investment, my family, um, you know, businesses. 22:15 My whole network is in Canada, right? So Canada gave me a home. You know, a lot of my friends call me, you know, Kelly of Canada. They're like, "Well, yeah, you gotta change your name now." 22:25 Because wherever I went, I always, you know, I always raised the Canadian flag 'cause I was always proud of it. 22:30 And, and that's why it took a lot of people aback like, "Wow, you know, if Ca- if Kelly of Canada is leaving, like what is, what is happening?" Um, so I would, uh, so it, it wasn't 22:44 as hard, but it was a difficult decision to make. Like, hey, I'm gonna leave mom and dad, my siblings, my friend, my partner, those kind of stuff. And how long did it take me? 22:56 So I started talking about US, I think during COVID, some of my friends in the US were like, "Oh, Kelly, you know, it's time for you to come visit me." I'm like, "Yeah, guys. You know I love Canada. I'm gonna come." 23:05 So I'm always visiting, you know. And then, and the funny thing is, about a year ago, I actually wrote a post on LinkedIn and I said, "I love Canada, but Canada is no longer..." 23:17 I think the title of that post was Canada Is No Longer The Promised Land. That's, that's, that was the title of the post. And I wrote, just putting my thoughts there as I usually do on LinkedIn. 23:24 And I was saying, "Look at this great country. Look at how far we've come, but a lot of things have gone sideways because of, you know, the leadership, right?" Regardless of who we had in power, right? 23:34 Whether it's liberal, 'cause I don't really care, but in some weird leadership is taking us, I don't think we're going in the right direction. Look at infrastructural problem, healthcare system. 23:42 I ha- I keep saying this publicly, I had a better medical care system in Nigeria than in Canada, period. Let's just say that, right? Maybe I was fortunate, but that's it. 23:52 I always agree with that, but though [laughs] Why, you know, back in Nigeria, maybe the max I waited for a doctor was like two hours, right? Here, my mom went to doctor like a couple weeks ago. It was 12 out of 14 hours. 24:03 That's ridiculous. Who does that, right? Um, what if y- whatever you're feeling gets, you know, terminal, right? You're gone, right? Yeah. 24:12 If you look at the amount of people that are dying just wait on-- sitting on the waiting list in Canada, it's like, okay, come on, we gotta do something, right? We can build infrastructure. 24:18 So the medical system needs to be looked at again by too many red tapes. Get people who are experienced into the system now, right? 24:25 Yeah, let them write certification exam, but maybe reduce the amount of stuff they need to do and get them into the system, right? Yeah. 24:31 Um, the next part, infrastructural, the housing, the bridges, the roads, the tunnels, the, the, the fast rail system running from, let's say, uh, Windsor, Ontario, all the way to like Montreal.They've been debating this for decades, even before I came to Canada. 24:44 Still to today, they said yes, they just signed, signed a contract to, to start designing. I guarantee you they will debate that for the next ten years. [laughs] So we have to change our mindset. 24:55 Canadians are polite people, but sometimes I think we think too small sometimes, and I... Like, guys, come on. I was placed on this earth not to think small. I gotta dream bigger, right? 25:05 So those- th- these things need to change, right? These, these things w- we need to change. That's just the honest truth. And I sat at this point, I'm like, "Yeah, I can either be here and be the change. 25:16 I can be here and fight, and it will cost me five year, you know, one decade, two decades, or I can go somewhere where I can make an impact, accelerate my growth, and actually look back and say, 'You know what? 25:27 What can I give back to this place that gave me everything?'" Right? Yeah. "What can I take back to, to people that, that have supported me and, and guided me to where I am today?" And I decided, okay, you know what? 25:36 It's time to, to start looking at the US. And I would say late last year, you know, I was looking and I'm like, okay, it's time for my new opportunity. 25:46 And I was looking at Canada and I realized this market is just different. What is going on? And I'm like, okay, you know, maybe I should just try the US and see what's, what's gonna happen. 25:54 And I tried the US, and the truth be told, the US opened its arm like this, like, "Bro, come right in." And I sat my friends down. I'm like, "Hey, I'm considering moving to the US." 26:04 My dad is like, "So what are you still waiting here?" Jeez. Like, [claps] "You're young. Go." Right? I love that. "You've, you've, you've done very well in Canada. You've thrived, you inspire people, right? 26:14 You're doing great, but you're still young. Go." Right? What is the worst that can happen, Kelly? If you go there, it doesn't work out, you don't like it, guess what? You come back. You can always come back home. 26:24 Look at the bright side. And then I looked at him like, you know, I talked to a couple of my friends, they're like, "Kelly, you gotta go." And, and that was it. I would say within like, um, a 60-day period, 26:38 you know, bags are packed. You know, I flew to Nigeria. I took the whole December off. You know, I rested. 26:44 The moment I la- I came back, I'm like, all right, it's, you know, within this 60-day period, I came back and like, let me start packing up my bags and, um, yeah. And that was it, right? 26:54 You know, jumped on a flight, you know, landing in San Francisco, and I'm out here, you know, trying to figure things out. You know, starting all over, you know, getting, you know, um, your, your car registered. 27:05 I was able to ship my car, so that was good. Um, getting a new license, your social security number, just understanding how the health system work here, those kind of stuff, apartment. 27:15 But I think the experience in Canada has prepared me where I'm actually moving through these things very quickly compared to someone who just arrived, so- Yeah. You're like in- I'm leveraging my, my knowledge... 27:24 like you're in your second immigration journey, so it's- Yeah... it's simpler. You're not all that existential crisis you dealt with. You dealt with the first time. 27:31 This time around you're like, "Oh, okay, this what, this is what I have to do. Okay, let's, let's, let's sort it out." [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and, and I'm out here and, um, excited to see where, you know, 27:42 where this journey's gonna take me. [sighs] You know, it's sad. Like I said earlier on, it's sad. It's like I feel bittersweet. Bittersweet. Yeah, it's sad. Like, look, I'm happy for you 'cause it's... 27:55 You always have-- I'm always happy to see people chase their dreams 'cause I'm like one of the... I'm one of the biggest people who always say to someone- Mm-hmm... I, I feel fear, but I always act despite fear. 28:08 That's how I've always operated all my life. So when I see- Yeah... someone do that, I'm like, yeah, that's my, that's my spirit animal. Like, just go and do the thing. Mm-hmm. The worst thing that can happen is no. 28:19 The worst thing that can happen is you fail. But you know what? Mm-hmm. You spent six months learning. You learnt a new thing. You're a different, you're a different animal- Yeah... 28:28 from the one that started that journey. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then again, also it's bitter for me because, you know, I keep seeing these things. 28:35 I interviewed Donna Berham last year, December last year- Mm... about that leaky, that leaky bucket report, you know? And, you know, I keep seeing these things and... 28:45 'Cause I think for me also it's I'm married, I have two kids, and I have two young boys- Yeah... two sharp young boys. And, you know, you look at them and you're like, what's the f- what's... 28:52 You, you want them to have a future- What's the future for you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want, really want them to have a future in Canada, you know, because I love this country so much. I love, like, I love the people. 29:01 I love the, I love the cli- the, the environment. I'm not sure about the climate that much. [laughs] Mm. I maybe, maybe when I'm 12 years like you, I'll be like, "Oh, I, I miss winter." Right now, ah. 29:12 [laughs] I mean, when the cold started, my eyes here hurting because literally- Yeah... every single time we switch from spring to summer, like I go through like serious eye hurt, eye pain. Yeah. You know, so I... 29:21 But I still love the country and all that. And then, you know, I put a post, post up last week on LinkedIn about I... You know, last year, I fractured my knee last year when I was playing competitive soccer. 29:30 I had to go for surgery and- Yeah... so after the surgery done, I ha- I got a blood clot in the process, you know? Oh, man. I had to, I... But that, the hospital saved me. I mean- Mm... 29:40 if it were somewhere else, I won't be here anymore, but the hospital saved me. Fair enough. Yeah. 29:44 And, you know, and something-- I had, I had heart palpitations some days and some weeks ago because I, I don't know what happened. The c- um, last week me, I picked up and I rushed me to the hospital because of the clot. 29:53 Yeah. So it was all those things, and I'm like, so I love what the country has given me. But then again, you look at, like you said, you look at, you have kids, and you look at their future and you're like, "Hmm." Mm. 30:03 "Where are we gonna be in 10 years when my son is gonna be 19?" Yeah. Where are we gonna be in 20 years when he's 29? And- Hopefully in a better place. Hopefully in a better place. Hope- hopefully. Yeah. 30:17 I mean, if we have-- I think we should start, as long as we're having the right conversations- Mm-hmm... you know, and we build systems that allow people like you who leave to somehow come back. 'Cause you know how 30:29 you can say it all you want, but like I said to you- Yeah... before we started recording, I think you can't out-entrepreneur bad policy. No. You just cannot. Yeah. 30:38 You, like, you can dream all you want, but if you've built stuff there and you're like trying to come back or do stuff here and the system doesn't encourage you to bring stuff in, you're just gonna sit back and be like, "Why am I stressing myself?"Mm-hmm. 30:51 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Canada. So, so like my LinkedIn post said, right, is this like goodbye forever? I don't believe so. Um, I see myself at some point saying, "You know what? It's time to go back home." Um, 31:04 and when that time comes, I would know because I'm like, "All right, I've explored. I've done what I, I came to do, you know, it's time to go back home." And that's okay. 31:12 Um, I still have a big net-network in the Toronto area, so I, I'll still be popping up for events, um, to, to fac-facilitate workshops and speak at events and all that. Um, but 31:25 you, you asked me a question earlier about, you know, how long it took me to write my, my post. I would say it took a couple weeks where I started a draft. 31:32 I left it, uh, my Google Sheet, uh, so, doc, came back to it, added some stuff, went back, came back. So I just kept on refining and refining because I wanted to... 31:42 I want- the message I wanted to put out there is like, "Hey, here's where I'm at." Um, I got to a point where it was just time for something new, right? 31:52 Um, it's not I'm saying, "Hey, you know, middle finger to Canada and move on." No, it's more, "Canada, you gave me everything," right? But sometimes you have to, to, to go somewhere to do some other stuff. 32:04 And I've always been this person, if you ask anybody around me, uh, I'm a go-getter, I'm a generalist. I like to try things. I like to, I like to fail. 32:10 I tell people I actually enjoy failing because the most successful, the most successful people on planet Earth are the ones with the highest number of failure. 32:18 And I'm at a point in my life where the fear of not trying outweighs the fear of failure. Yeah. So I'm like, well- Never lose that by the way though, Kelly. Never lose that. Yeah. 32:28 And, and I, I, I pray I don't lose that, right? Never lose that. Just keep going. Never lose that. Because the truth is, you'd never know w- if you don't dare to try. 32:37 And yeah, sometimes the, the grass isn't, isn't always greener on the other side. However, you can stay on your side and never get to the other side of anything you wanna do, and just stay in your comfort zone. 32:50 And something... Me and comfort zones, we don't agree. [laughs] I just... We, we don't agree. Yes, I get comfortable for a second. I'm like, "Okay, live in the moment. 32:58 Enjoy what you just achieved, Kelly, but it's time to move." Because when you get so comfortable, that is when you become complacent. 33:04 And the truth be told, I think for all of us that have moved away from Nigeria to Canada, let's be honest, all of us are go-getters. Yeah. It's not easy to pack up your... 33:12 Especially for those people that were, like over 30 or 40 when they packed up. Yeah. Fam, it's not easy to do that, right? And I left the Aju. I left the Aju to move to Canada. See? [laughs] So it's a big move. 33:24 But then what happens is this, we come, we land, couple of years and we become complacent. We just stay in this place where- Yeah. Instead of we're complacent or fear just cripples us like, "Ah, let me just stay, yo." 33:35 Like, I'm like, dream a bit bigger. Um, dream a bit bigger. 33:41 Um, I do have something coming down the pipeline, uh, because my, my story personally from even from when I was a student till now, I've always been in these environments where people looked up to me, even people that were older than me. 33:52 I'm not sure why, but they were always inspired by things I did or my own story. And it's been like that for the last four years. 33:59 And I'm like, okay, if people are gonna look up to me, I'm a Christian, so the Bible says, you know, "To whom much is given, much is expected." 34:05 So, I'm like, all right, if, if this is the crown God has given me, let me wear it. And, uh, I'm a big believer of as you succeed, your success is not just for you, it's actually for the people behind you. 34:17 Because getting to the top of the mountain and you're just there by yourself, it's, it's very lonely at the top, right? Open the door, keep the door open for other people to come in. 34:24 And that's what I wanna do with my own journey from a professional st- point of view, from a business point of view, and from a personal point of view as well. Yeah. So we're going to round up now. 34:33 I mean, I think, I think last next, last question for me is like, so what's next right now? Like it's workings, running a business, jumping straight into startup scene, finding the balance, like- Mm. What next? Yeah. 34:44 [laughs] That's a great question. Um, I'll, I always tell my, my mentees and my clients, "You don't have to figure it out from the start." Mm. Right? I'm a project manager. 34:53 Uh, I work in project management right now in the clean tech space. And, uh, one of the reasons why I chose to come out here to Silicon Valley is, again, if you wanna do something great in finance, you go to New York. 35:04 You wanna do something great in entertainment, you go to LA, right? In fashion, you go to, uh, Paris or Italy. But you wanna do something in innovation and technology, there's only one place that comes to mind. 35:14 It's Silicon Valley, where the energy is just different, right? 35:18 And whether you're working on a startup or you're working for a company, whatever you're working on has the potential to change the fabric of how we live, work, and play. That's why I came out here. 35:28 So as a pro- technical project manager right now, my project's actually focused on how we power AI data centers. A lot of people don't talk about it, but I believe, I know it sounds controversial, AI has no future. 35:41 If we don't solve the energy problem, it has no future. And I actually have a post coming on that next week, Monday. Um, it's big because, 35:51 yes, it takes more energy to use ChatGPT to, uh, you know, for one prompt compared to like Google. So it's a lot of energy, so we need to solve that problem. 36:00 So I'm really excited I'm part of those people trying to solve that problem. Um, so that's one part of it. Yes, I'm out here where people are just doing different stuff. 36:09 Ideas are just like bumping into each other, right? I, uh, you know, I signed up to Y Combinator, I'm going to their events. I'm just meeting people. I'm like, "All right, let me meet people." You never know. 36:17 And that's why I love in-person events. Yes, connecting and, and engaging with people online is great, but that in-person part, I don't joke with it. It's very important. 36:25 So it's more, yes, I'm out here still running stuff in Canada, uh, but I'm also working here. I'm exploring i- ideas, I'm exploring opportunities. I'm just trying to have fun and just live life the way I can. 36:37 That's it, right? So I would say to, to the audience, you know, just watch out. There's, there's a lot more to come as I continue to, to, to just explore stuff. 36:45 In project management, there's something we call progressive elaboration. It just means as you progress, things get clearer and clearer and clearer and clearer. 36:53 I just arrived, so just, you know-There's still a lot to, to explore, so- Enjoy, man. Enjoy... exactly. So as it comes, you just never know, right? 37:02 Uh, I, I, I, I, I told people like, "Hey, I'm in Silicon Valley right now. Yeah, maybe tomorrow I may be in New York or I may be in Austin, Texas." Who knows, right? 37:11 But I'm out here, uh, I'm daring to try, and I'm just chasing a dream, and I'm just ex- really excited to see where this, this journey actually takes me. 37:22 First of all, before I, before I sign this off, I love the energy that how you lit up while you're talking about this. Like, I absolutely love it. But thank you. 37:30 Like, honestly, thanks for coming on the show, and thanks for being very frank, because I feel like we need really frank conversation about, one, where Canada is, two, and what's possible. Mm-hmm. 37:39 And three, I think there's something you talked about. Like, you talked about it, but you just moved on, which is that part about how if you already packed your life into two suitcases and moved to a new country, 37:51 why dream small? Mm-hmm. Like, why? Like, you already just literally packed up, moved out, started afresh. Mm-hmm. So what are you scared of? Failing? Yo, 38:07 you, you-- immigrating means that to some extent you said your past life was a failure somehow. Like, you, you pressed stop there- Mm-hmm... and said, "You know what? I'm gonna go start again." 38:17 You could call it- Start... whatever, but the point is that you, you can term it failure, it's not working out, and that's what you did. So- Mm-hmm... what are you scared of? What are you scared of? Yeah. 38:27 That's- But thanks... that's a good way. Yeah. No, I appreciate you having me here. 38:30 And I always tell people when they reach out to me, "Oh, Kelly, I just came to Canada, and I saw your s- your post, and I'm so worried, like, did I come late?" Here's what I tell people. 38:38 [laughs] We all walk different paths in life, and comparison is the thief of joy. You cannot compare your story with mine, first and foremost, because I'm already in my chapter twenty. You're in your chapter two. 38:57 If you start comparing your chapter two and my chapter twenty, you're doing yourself a disservice, right? "Oh, Kelly, I just arrived. I just graduated, and then I saw your post. And did I come to Canada late? 39:06 Oh, I'm thinking of moving to Canada, and I saw your post. So should I stop?" I'm like, "Buddy, do whatever you wanna do," right? People are succeeding in Canada, absolutely. Don't get me wrong, right? 39:16 But you should know that I've been here for twelve years and decided to leave. You haven't even stepped foot there. [laughs] Right? So 39:24 take other people's story, take input, take feedback, but make sure you, you, you, you, you, you, you be careful with what you listen to or you watch or you read. 39:32 But make sure you're taking those inputs and using them as fuel to make the right decision for yourself and move on. Because the truth is, no other person on planet Earth is like Kelly Boye. No other person. 39:44 Yeah, you can maybe say, "Oh, but I went to the same school as you," or, "I graduated from program." 39:48 But what I've done, what I've tried, some of the failures, some of the successes, you have never experienced it, unfortunately. So I want my story to be more of an inspiration to people that, hey, 39:58 uh, a skinny boy who was born and raised in Delta State, Nigeria, can leave, come to Canada, excel professionally, right? 40:07 And say, "All right, it's time to go excel in the biggest startup in the world, the United States." I want that to be an inspiration to people, as opposed to a deterrent. Like, "Hey, don't go to Canada again, o." 40:17 [laughs] Is Canada easy like it used to be before? Let's be honest, no. However, you have to come with a plan. If you're coming to Canada to just come and relax, you're wasting your time. 40:27 Because in Canada, you have to blow your own trumpet. You have to be your biggest cheerleader. You need to think and act differently if you actually wanna see significant results for yourself. 40:40 But if you decide to come and follow the masses, you may regret your decision coming to Canada. I'll leave it there. That's a good place to end this. [laughs] Absolutely. That's a really good place to end this. 40:53 Thank you so much. Thank you. Like, like, Kelly, I really, really, really, really appreciate this, honestly. Like, I really- Thank you... say that part about comparison, like, gosh. 41:02 'Cause it's so easy as a, as an immigrant to start doing the thing where you're comparing yourself to everyone else. Yeah. You know. So thank you very much. Thank you. 41:11 Like, as Kelly says, if you're still planning to come to Canada, I think you should still move here, 'cause really, everyone's path is different. His day tw- his year twelve is not my year four. 41:21 Like, all of us have different journeys. It doesn't change the reality on ground. But what you shouldn't do is say because someone did X, so you're going to do X. Like, his question is find your own journey. 41:33 But again, as always, thank you so much for getting to this point of the podcast. I really appreciate that. If you know someone who finds this useful, send this to them. 41:41 If you know someone who I should talk to, who you think has a great story, please send them my way, my way. Please sign up, you know, on Substack, YouTube. Anywhere you get your podcasts, you find us there. 41:52 Have a beautiful one, everyone. [outro jingle]
