Transcript 0:00 Welcome back to the Newcomers Podcast, where I explore what it means to be an immigrant with immigrants like myself. Today, I'm speaking with Kateryna Havrilova, who's the co-founder of Best Windows Solution and Doors. 0:12 But that's not the story. The story is Kateryna gets up one day in twenty twenty-two for February. Actually, I think it's before February twenty-fourth, packs two bags with her husband and her kid, and they go to Poland. 0:27 And then on a day or so before her husband's birthday, her husband's birthday is on the twenty-fifth, a neighbor calls him and says, "Yo, the war just started," and a missile hit the house. 0:41 And all of a sudden, a vacation goes from a vacation to a one-year trip around eu-- some parts of Europe and then down to Canada here as an immigrant. [sighs] This was some story for a ton of reasons. 0:58 But yeah, let's get to it. Enjoy. [upbeat music] In your docu-story with me when we did the CCIS docu-story, you talked about 1:16 having to... You were on holidays, and then you found out that you were leaving, you-- that you had to-- you weren't going back home. I, I wonder, like, how-- what did that feel? Oh, wow. How, how did I feel? 1:33 How did I feel? Um, felt just devastated, um, desperate. Didn't know what to do, like, first day, uh, like, when the war started. 1:44 Like, uh, yeah, telling the truth, we, we've go-uh, we gone for vacation, uh, because my husband actually has a birthday on February twenty-fifth, and the war started February twenty-fourth, and we have family tradition, uh, to travel, uh, for his birthday. 1:59 So we just, uh, got our, like, bags, uh, for vacation and went to Poland. 2:07 Uh, and, uh, then, like, early morning, like, at three AM, I've got a call from our friend that war started, that actually missile, uh, hit the house, which is nearby to our house. 2:22 And he was, like, shocked, and he was like, "What should I do? Where should I go?" And my husband just told him, like, "Hey, take your car and, like, uh, go as far as you can." So this is how it started. 2:35 Then I called my parents. They were okay. 2:39 Uh, but, like, the several next months after the war, it, it was really hard for all of the people to adjust, uh, 'cause, uh, it was the times when I couldn't reach my family due to internet connection and cell phone connection issues. 2:57 Sometimes, uh, they just hide, you know, under the ground because of missiles attack, and it was very difficult moments to guess, hey, if they're alive or not or what is going on. 3:09 'Cause, um, I'm from Kharkiv, and my, um, city was, uh, the first, uh, to be occupied by Russians. But now it's Ukraine again. 3:19 [clears throat] Yeah, so we, we just gone and, uh, like, back home we had a business as well, so it was car business. 3:26 We were connected, uh, with importing cars, with import, so for us it was a big, big issue because our cars, uh, uh, were going, uh, from States in containers and shipping line just dropped them in the nearest ports. 3:43 So I had four hundred cars in the transit to Ukraine when the war started, and I needed to handle that. 3:51 So I collected all the cars around the Europe, and we had another issue when, uh, we were not able to pay for the freight forwarding services, uh, because our national bank, bank started, uh, that protection policy, uh, when, uh, you, uh, couldn't make any, uh, international transfers. 4:12 So we kind of dealt with that. Um, and also a lot of our clients were not able to pay us due to the situation, like they lost their homes, houses, jobs. 4:25 Uh, w-was, was difficult, so this is how, how my immigration started. [sighs] So far we, we lived in Poland. We spent some times in Germany. And then we came back to Poland again, and then we went to Canada. 4:43 And like... Sorry, story. I'm so sorry. Yeah. I'm so sorry. How-- W-what did you-- what, what did you tell your kid, you know, at, at all those times? Like, did he feel it? 4:57 Did he understand it, or did he sense that things weren't exactly as they should? Uh, of course, yeah. So, uh, he was three years old when w-we left the country, and he was shocked. 'Cause at first we were shocked. 5:14 Like, uh, to tell the truth, I thought it's gonna be like the third world war. I thought like, okay, 5:22 you know, w-when we learned them at school about the Second World War and, like, how we remember, uh, there was a, like, food crisis, and I was like, "Okay, we need to save food. We need to save money. We need to 5:35 finish-- We need to finish your breakfast because probably in a few months or so we will not have, like, food to eat." [chuckles] Gosh. You know? What, what, what was going on in my head. Yeah, so, hmm. 5:47 But yeah, a-anyway, he missed his friends and, like, even when we came to Canada, that was, uh, like one year after the war started. 5:58 Uh, when he did his paintings, uh, he used only two colors, uh, which are the colors of our flag, uh, blue and yellow. And that wasVery, very painful to me. And even now he said-- he says, "No, I'm not Canadian. 6:14 I'm Ukrainian. Like, I was born in Ukraine, and, like, I don't want... I didn't need Canadian passport." [laughs] Like, he is six now. Yeah. 6:29 [sighs] You're, you're, you're something. You and your family, you're all are superheroes, honestly, 'cause I can't even imagine... 6:42 Like, did you say-- Like, I mean, because I know, I know that, uh, because I, I'm looking at it from outside in because I'm not Ukrainian. I was-- Where was I when that happened? This-- the war started, um- 6:54 Uh, twenty twenty-two... two years ago. February. Twenty twenty-two. Yeah. So I was just moving to- Twenty-fourth. I was moving from Ottawa to Calgary about that point in time. 7:05 Did you all sense that probably was gonna get to a war before you are going on the holiday, or did you think that it will get sorted out, and you will go back home? Uh, yeah. 7:15 Actually, like, I felt that, that it's going, it's going to happen. Um, mostly, like, I can't say I felt, but I knew. I had the proper education for that. 7:30 I have master's degree in international economics, and, uh, we were taught, you know, not to listen what polit-politician says but to read that signs. So, uh, I watched the interview of, um, 7:45 uh, German Chancellor Scholz, uh, and Putin before the war started, and, like, I watch it without, like, um, w-w-like, like- Without the-... without the any voices. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I just watched. 7:59 And from the, their mimics, movements, how did they look at each other, I said, "No, they didn't find the agreement." Yeah. Uh, and, um, yeah, like I just analyzed what was going on. 8:16 I, uh, checked the flights. You know, you, uh, have-- I don't remember how this program calls, but actually you're-- like, everyone is able to track flights. 8:27 And I saw that many Ukrainian private boards that belong to businessmen or politicians left the country, and that was a red flag for me. I, I saw that interviews. I saw, uh, like, 8:41 uh, the Russian groups around our borders, and, like, I, I was smart enough not to believe that i-it's just, you know, l-like, they just learning how to handle, like- [laughs]... all of that. Yeah. And, um, 8:57 but everyone else thought I'm crazy 'cause, yeah, i-it's craziness, right, to start the war in Europe in twenty twenty-two. Come on, it's t-twenty-first century. Yeah. We know how to do negotiations, right? Mm-hmm. 9:12 We learned the lesson from the Second World War. And yeah, that's crazy. And, like, me saying that, "Hey, guys, the war is coming. We need to do something about that." So we just, 9:24 uh, we packed the little bag with our documents and some cash money just, just in case. And, and yeah, so we took that bag for our vacation. 9:37 And, like, hmm, how it's-- like how we say in Ukraine, it was like third feeling. Like I made, uh, the photos of our photo wall at home, 9:50 um, just to remember how it was and just, just for my son to see how it was like. Um, but now he doesn't remember anything- [laughs]... about our apartments. 10:02 Yeah, yeah, about, like, how, how it was before the war started, unfortunately. Yeah. 10:09 But what I do, I ask my mom to send me photos of my, my childhood, his childhood, and we just show him photos, uh, because I really want him to remember his roots- Yeah... 10:22 and, like, how it all started, like, where we coming from, what is our culture, who we are. Yeah. 10:37 [sighs] How do you, how do you manage to... I mean, I would have lost my mind, honestly. I think the question I'm trying to ask is, 10:54 and I know I asked you this in the interview and, um, in the other interview, and you broke down. So I'm, I'm wondering whether I should ask you, but I really wanna know, and I, I wanna explore that with you, 11:04 is how often you talk to your parents? Well, now we connected, uh, like almost every day by phone. Um, it is very painful for me. 11:19 Yeah, you're right, because, um, we have a very, uh, warm relationship with my family, parents, with my grandmother, like, with my cousins, uh, uncle and aunts. 11:31 Uh, we were always, you know, the big family who gathers- Mm-hmm... like every weekends. [laughs] Oh, God, that's so sweet. Barbecue. Yeah. 11:40 And it's kinda hard because, yes, I feel alone here without my family and without their support. And, um, now I understand what they feel, but I'm not in that situation with them, right? 11:57 And they kinda understand what is going on here with my life, but they don't get it, you know, one hundred percent because- Yes... they are not in this circumstances. 12:07 So it's kinda-I, I'm not saying that this is kinda, uh, not a huge break, like, not something like that, but we're so far away from each other, and, uh, it, it... We, we're still family, we still love each other, right? 12:24 But we're not involved i-in each other's life anymore. 12:29 I know that for many people, like, i-it's totally fine and i-in most countries, like, kids just go away from parents', uh, houses and l-live, uh, on their own lives, like, and they chat, like, o-once, one, one time i-in a month. 12:45 But this is not about our family. We always kept, you know, a very strong connection because, yeah, th-this is how we were raised, yeah. This is our culture. 13:02 You, uh, you're, you're something, honestly, 'cause you, you're going through all this, and then you still-- You came here, you set up a business, you're doing amazing stuff, you're raising your kid. 13:14 [laughs] If people don't tell you that enough- Yeah, did I have another choice? I mean, we-- life is just set of choices we do, right? S-so yeah, I, I did have another choice to give up, but this is not about me. Yeah. 13:31 So I just came here, just opened my heart to a new culture- [laughs]... uh, opened my, my mind for new knowledge. Uh, yeah, and did it. I, I adjusted. This is my advice for all immigrants. If you ever plan 13:50 or thought about immigration, you need to be ready to be open-minded, to adjust, to accept the culture. Not to change the culture where you're coming, but to accept it and, like, still be the person who you are- Yeah... 14:08 but understand that people here are different, and, like, their way of life is different, and you need to follow this if you want to succeed, if you want to f-feel happy, [laughs] included- Yeah... in the community. 14:23 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, it's very, very important, actually. And that thing you say about is y-you don't-- People come... I mean, I, I hate the word assimilate. I don't think people should assimilate. 14:33 I think you should integrate. Yeah. But also, what you say is important is accept that it's a different place, and your job is not to change it, but to make it better if you can. 14:46 That's your job is how do you make the place better? That's true. Y-y-you know, it's not, "Oh, I want to change." No, it's, "Can I make this better?" 14:54 And but, but to do that, you need to first understand why it is the way it is, which goes back to what you're saying about k-keeping an open mind and being like, "Okay, I'm in Canada, and this is just what it is." 15:07 You know, and honestly, you're an, you're an inspiration because I have no freaking right to complain about anything. I got up- Yeah... I got up my family, and I moved here. You literally had to... 15:21 You came here with a vacation bag after living in Europe for one year. Like, gosh. [laughs] Yeah. Why did you choose Canada, though? Uh, Canada, like, that was simple. 15:39 Uh, remember that I mentioned to you that something was happening in my head, that I was scared. [laughs] I was freaked, freaked out. 15:48 And I thought, "Okay, if the Third World War is going to happen, we need to be in the safest place." [laughs] Actually, there is nobody going, you know, to attack with missiles. And yeah, we chose Canada 16:05 for that because we said, "Okay, actually, our business is connected with States because we import cars from United States." 16:12 But no, like, States is the one who is going to be there because they're kind of the big, uh, player, right? Then we thought, "Okay, what we can do about, like, what-- a-and other countries?" 16:25 Because Europe doesn't really, uh, look, uh, looks safe even now. Yeah. Like, I, I wouldn't be there. Uh, so we decided, okay, Canada. Mm-hmm. Canada, good for families, safe, check mark. 16:40 [laughs] Still can do business there. Okay, check mark. Uh, and also it was warm here, but not in terms of weather. [laughs] Very cold here. But- I agree. [laughs] Yeah. When we, when we came here... 17:00 A-and actually, like, w-what, what is the most, like, the craziest part of the story of my immigration, like, from Poland to Canada, that we actually just came to visit our friend here who moved here. Yes. 17:16 So I paid, like, one month in advance for our house in Poland. We just took our bags. Like, we didn't have a lot of, uh, like, clothes or stuff. W-we, uh, left with two bags, and we had, uh, two bags again. 17:33 So we came here and like, "Oh, wow, I feel safe here. I feel that this community actually do not mind having me here." And I explain you why I'm saying that, because in Europe, most nations, um, 17:50 you know, they keep it, uh, like, I may say nationalism, right? Uh, when you're there, like, uh, w-we lived in Poland, and I learned Polish. 18:03 I was very good in-- like, not very good, but I was able to, uh, to deal with, uh, daily, you know, stuff, like even to call to the lawyer, like-Like, yeah. So, but I didn't feel I belong to that community. 18:19 I didn't feel they accept me. Like, uh, they-- It's kind of feeling. I don't know even how to explain that, but when you're-- Like, and I, I hear, uh, that about all the European countries. 18:33 They, they stick to their community. They don't want to let immigrants in. Like i-in Germany, in France, they're like, "Okay, w-we are French, and, like, we are first class, and you're an immigrant, you're second class." 18:49 And that was itself. And when I came to Canada, I really didn't feel that. And I was really afraid about, like, my English, my accent. Like, will people understand me? Will I understand them? 19:01 But then when I came here, I saw this diversity of nations, and I saw this inclusion, and I saw that every nation respects each other. 19:13 And then, like, we spent here, uh, ten days, and I told my husband, "You know what? I feel this is a good place for us to settle down because I feel safe here." 19:25 And, like, this is the first time when I really feel, like, calmness, uh, like, since the war started and, like, living one year in Poland. I feel we, we can be here. So decision was made. 19:41 We just canceled our flight back. [laughs] I called my mom, and I told, like, "Mom, you know what? We decided to stand, uh, to stay, to stay in Canada." And she was like, "Okay. Well, good. 19:56 We can do something about that. I need a visa." [laughs] You know- Yeah. I'm going to go back to your parents and your family. Okay. 20:05 The first, the first part for me is, has your son started drawing with other colors yet? Yes. Oh, awesome. He, he started, yeah, yeah. 20:14 A-actually, like, about this, these colors, yeah, I mentioned that he started here, like, only with yellow and blue. Then about in eight months, he started to use red, and that was for Canada. 20:27 He kinda accepted, "Okay, I'm here." 20:30 Now, when he's more fluent in English, when he's able to set some connections with kids, he started to use more colors, and I feel-- I see now he feels more happier than, than one year ago when we arrived, when he didn't have any friends, and he was like, "I, I need a friend, but nobody understands me." 20:53 And it's very painful. Um- Have your parents ever come to see you here? No, only my mom. Unfortunately, my dad is, uh, he is ex, uh, military man. He's colonel, so he has his duties, uh, over there. 21:11 And, like, actually, nobody is allowed to leave the country. I mean, man. Man is not allowed to leave the country right now, and even some, uh, and even some women, uh, who have, um, like- Military training?... 21:24 doctor's degrees or, like, some, uh, military, um, uh, like mil- who, who used to take some military lessons, they are- Yeah... not allowed to leave the country as well. 21:36 So yeah, this is a very painful part about my dad, unfortunately. I'm sorry. And, and also about my grandmother because, uh, my granny, 21:49 uh, was the person who actually raised me while, and my grandfather, but he passed away. And while my parents, uh, worked hard to earn money, like, you know, it, it usually works like this, I mean, in all communities. 22:04 Yeah. Like, young generation- Yeah... works, and, like, the grandparents, uh, helps them with kids. Mm-hmm. And I really missed my granny, and I'm, I'm very sorry. I feel that it shouldn't work that way that, 22:19 like, now she's seventy-five. She worked, like, almost all her life. She was an accountant. She-- And by the way, she has just quitted the job, so she worked till she's seventy-five. And now the war 22:34 does not allow her, like, to enjoy the life. 22:38 Uh, when we, when we have that calls with her, like video calls, she's saying that, "The only thing that keeps me alive is Michael's photos, is your photos, that I see that you're happy here." 22:54 And, uh, [crying] and that we, like, might meet, meet each other again. But, like, I'm not sure how because she's seventy-five, and it's really difficult for her to get a visa here. And, like, 23:13 um, while it is war, we were afraid to move her, you know, to the border with Poland because it's kind of dangerous to move from city to city. 23:26 Yeah, and, and she is also, like, not as young as for this kind of, uh, traveling. 23:32 So yeah, the, the only way probably for us to meet is, like, me coming to Europe, and, like, when situation calms down a little bit, probably they will run some negotiations, so we can take her to Poland. 23:48 Or probably the war will end, and I pray for that, so we can come back and see our family and relatives and, like, unite again. Yeah. 24:07 [crying] Would you-- If, if the war ends, will you move back, or you will live in Canada now? Uh, no, we are not going to move back definitely because, uh, situation is the following thatUh, economy is damaged. 24:21 Like- Yeah... society is damaged. Yeah. Like, a lot of men who was at, at war, who came back with terrible injuries. So like, I mean, they-- I, I can't say they, they have like mental disease. 24:38 It's not, this is about they, they, they just traumatized. And I know that there are a lot of weapon just going around the city, like a lot of people now can have weapon just in their houses, homes. 24:51 And it's just defer- uh, the, it just da-dangerous to raise son, to raise a son in this circumstances. So I just need to think about the future of my son, so and his future here, definitely. 25:09 But of course, if war ends, I just want to see my family of... I will take the first flight [chuckles] back home. Yeah. So we're rou-we're rounding up now. I probably have two to, two or three questions for you. 25:24 I think- Okay... the fir-the first one for me is, have you-- how have you tried to replace some of that, some of that community you described that you had back home with family? 25:37 Have you tried to re-place it here, and so far, has it worked? Mm. Um, community, yeah, we have very strong Ukrainian community here. 25:47 Of course, we have a lot of like friends, um, like with whom we can do barbecue weekends, right? 25:56 [laughs] But, um, but I feel that thing that it's really hard to find the real, real, you know, soulmates. 26:06 Because like usually your soulmates are your school friends or university friends and wh-where you find them, right? 26:14 And here where you all came, yeah, it's easier to be, to become closer because we're all in that bad circumstances when we need someone. We just need someone like we, right? 26:27 But it's difficult to become, to find and to become someone's soulmate. Uh, yeah. Um, I also try to integrate myself in Canadian community, 26:42 um, trying, you know, to get along with, uh, mothers at school, with teachers. Like I attend business club, 26:50 uh, because still the coun- the, the culture, the way how we communicate, even the way how we invite each other to like guests, to, to, to have someone as a guest to, uh, to throw that parties or to 27:06 like to have some business negotiations, everything is so different. You need to learn. Yeah. Uh, sometimes I feel like I'm a little kid who is just learning to put his feet in this life. 27:23 It's like when you're a teenager, you're trying, "Okay, how I do this? How I do this? How I can succeed in this grown-up's life? What, what are my plans?" So I'm [chuckles] 27:34 still around the stage when it comes, you know, to Canadian community. 27:38 [chuckles] I put my feet in, I'm trying, I'm asking, I just, I really ask them, I say, "Hey, you do these things different than I expected it to do, so can you please tell me like what is the best way? 27:52 How can, how can I do this?" Like, 27:55 and the interesting thing, you know, that, uh, some Ukrainians who live here like thirteen, fifteen years and, uh, have their businesses, I hear from them, "Hey, I still feel like I'm an im-immigrant." 28:09 And I was like, "Oh, wow, really?" [laughs] Like, in fifteen years you still have that feeling. Okay. So I still have my time 'cause I'm here just two years. So a lot of work to do. Yeah. 28:24 I, I think it takes time, and I think that, um... I mean, I came across this thread on Twitter some, some days ago about people saying how, 28:35 um, it sometimes takes three, four generations before, or two generations before people you feel you, you fully integrate. Like you fully say, "Oh, we are Canadians." I, I feel like it takes time. Yeah. 28:48 I think people gloss over that, which is why I don't like sweeping statements like, "Oh, all immigrants should assimilate." I'm like, I'm like, do you know how-- do you know what a- integration means? 28:56 Talk more of assimilation. You can't just force it on someone. Like, it's a journey because people are people, you know? Um... Yeah. Do you feel, uh, yourself integrated? 29:10 [chuckles] I, I don't, I don't, I don't think I, I don't think I'm fully integrated yet. I feel like I'm just, I'm, I was-- I turned f- I've been here for four years now. Oh. 29:20 Um, February 4th this month was actually four years in Canada, and I'm just begin- Congratulations. [chuckles] Thank you so much. And I'm just beginning to feel like... 29:30 So like for example, this was my first easiest winter. Okay. What I mean is that it just felt like the winter, like it w- it felt w- it felt like part of my life. Okay, nice. 29:39 This was my first winter when it just felt like, oh, okay, it's winter. Like, because every other winter that I've gone through here, it's always felt like some dark moment where things like, what is going on? 29:50 [chuckles] You know? So I, this was the first time where I was telling my wife that it just, it just felt like winter just happened. Like, oh, winter is almost over. We're getting to spring. Oh, that's good. Yeah. 30:02 Because somehow it, it just went on, like life went on. So, and you're right, like or the you-- what the person told you is right. Like it takes time. Yeah. 30:12 And I'm going four years, and I still feel like the other sometimes. I still doubt myself. I still worry about my accent. I still worry that people don't understand me. I still second-guess myself before I say stuff. 30:26 I'm still-I go into some bars and I feel so out of place that I walk out of it because I'm like, "Gosh, I'm the only Black person here." I, I still struggle with all of that, and I'm four years in. Yeah. And 30:40 I guess that's just the burden of being an immigrant is that you- Yeah... I've just made peace with the fact that I'll probably always feel like the other till I get old and pass on. 30:51 But that my child will have a much better life than I did because they will be more integrated in society than I was. Yeah. 30:59 But my job is just to make sure that I make su- I help them and show them the way, and I try to understand the society for what it is and make it much better than I le- than I met it. So [sighs] 31:11 you're just starting, and, and I think it's a journey. I think the, the goal is, for me, is people should see it as a journey. It's not some race. It's not some- Yeah... race where as if there's no finish line. 31:21 There's just you living- Definitely... your life. There's no finish line. Yes. Definitely. There's no finish line. I think my last question for you, which is basically 31:33 how, how has your sense of identity changed over time? Like, so do you-- I, I, I believe you still see yourself as a Ukrainian, but like- Yeah... in terms of who Kateryna is right now, like how... Has it changed? 31:46 If you look at the lady who when mo- left for Poland and the lady who's talking to me today, you know, is it the same Kateryna? How has it changed? Has Canada influenced you a ton or you're still pushing back a bit? 32:03 Uh, I definitely changed. It, it-- I had so many lessons during this two years. I had so many stressed moment that prove myself, that made me stronger, definitely. Like, I'm not fragile anymore. 32:21 [laughs] Uh, after what has, what ha-has happened to me, I feel that everything is possible. You just need to want it, just see it, work hard for it, like, go for it. I definitely stronger now. 32:39 I, I'm not afraid anymore, you know? [laughs] I'm not afraid to feel uncomfortable. 32:45 Like, when you do your first steps in immigration, like you mentioned, you worry, and I mentioned, you worry about your accent, how people will percept you, how people will look at you. But, like, during these two years, 33:03 I did this uncomfortable situation so many times that now I just don't care. [laughs] Think about me whatever you want. I'm just learning. I'm on my way. Oh, gosh, that is so beautiful. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. 33:20 And I think that- Actually, this is a good advice for newcomers. Yeah. I know that your pos- podcast is for newcomers and for those who are thinking to become a newcomer. You 33:31 shouldn't care what people with-- will think about you here. You should only care how to reach your aim, why you are here. Like, definitely most immigrants come to Canada for the better life, right? 33:48 So you should see your better life somewhere here, and you're just walking to this. And no matter what happens, you will find a solution. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much. [laughs] Thank you. 34:06 Thank you very much. And thank you for, thank you for just sharing your story, honestly. And, um, I'm gonna say it again, you are a superhero. Thank you. Like- You are... we're all superheroes. 34:19 I, I mean, a lot of people are superheroes who are changing their lives. Yeah, yeah. My story was a little bit difficult, was war part. Way difficult, but everything is possible. That is my life motto. 34:34 [laughs] Everything is possible. Everything is possible. Honestly, everything is possible. Because, you know, like Kateryna says about we immigrants, 34:46 by the time you go through all the very, very uncomfortable moments where you have to face yourself, because you actually face yourself every single time you go through one of those uncomfortable moments, you get stronger, you get better. 35:00 And for me, like, that's the superpower we have, so let's not waste it. Thanks for getting to this point of the episode. Thanks for listening. Thanks for all the support. Thanks for sharing. 35:11 If you know someone who should listen to this, please send it their way. If you know someone we should talk to, send them my way. And as always, like, share, subscribe. You know we're on Substack, we're on YouTube, 35:22 anywhere you find your podcasts, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Overcast, anywhere. As always, peace out. [outro jingle]
