Transcript 0:00 Feyi is a historian. Yeah. And so he's been in the UK for 20 years, and so it was really good to talk to him about what it felt like moving back when he moved. He moved in 2004. That's 20 years, 'cause this is 2024. 0:19 Because he's literally seen immigration through the eyes of, like, all the ups and downs. And one beautiful thing we did explore here was the idea of time. 'Cause I feel like immigrants, we 0:36 always in a hurry, you know. Checklist, we need to do this, this, this, this. But the fact is that everything takes time. And if you accept that, then anything is possible. 0:54 Let's get to his story. 0:55 [intro jingle] Whenever I think about Japa or immigration from a Nigerian African perspective, it just feels like you're one of those people who's, you've been away for a pretty long time. 1:14 And if you think about how, with all the conversation going on right now, I think it's more like, what did it feel like when moving back when you moved to the UK? 1:24 Like, was it-- 'Cause it feels like now everyone talks about it, but I wonder, I always wonder, what did it feel like back then, you know, moving at that point in time? That's a good one. 1:36 Um, I-- So I moved to the UK in 2004, so coming up to 21 years now. Um- Geez... I think, I think the key thing that maybe we don't really think about enough is that 1:50 immigration or, or, or emigration out of Nigeria is really a, a pool thing. 1:57 So in the sense that we are subject to the whims of any other country, which is that, uh, for example, you know, the, one, one of the ones that happened very early, maybe in the '90s when we were all back in Nigeria was green card lottery. 2:13 It had nothing to do with Nigeria. Yeah. It was the Americans who decided that they wanted to do this green card lottery, and Nigerians responded to it. We've got Canada in the last 10 years. 2:23 Again, Nigerians responded to it. So it happens quite a lot that a country far away somewhere, usually maybe one of the G7 countries, decides that, okay, we want to bring in some more immigrants. 2:35 And just because of the nature of how Nigeria is in terms of we always seem to be going through one economic crisis or the other, we are an English-speaking country, and our middle class tend to hit a ceiling 2:50 in the sense that- Yeah... you are earning a lot of money, but your quality of life doesn't really go above a certain level. So- Geez... 2:58 no matter how much you earn, right, you are still dealing with diesel and all that kind of stuff. You're still dealing with electricity. You're still dealing with insecurity. 3:07 So we always have a latent body of Nigerians ready to respond to any immigration changes. If America comes up with a new immigration policy today that Nigerians qualify for, it will suck a lot of Nigerians. 3:24 You know, people have responded to Australia. I remember a friend, uh, some years ago, a sta- a story that stayed with me. She mentioned that, 3:33 um, at her office-- So I, I asked her, you know, she was working with a, a, a company that, you know, had suffered quite a number of, um, immigra- a loss of talent due to immigration. And she mentioned something to me. 3:46 She said, look, her problem is not even the people who have left, that if people have left, she can deal with that. 3:52 The problem for her was the people who were still there but who were constantly working on their immigration papers, so you couldn't get anything out of them. 4:01 So they'll come into the office in the morning and all that kind of stuff, you know, but they spend the whole day, you know, trying to work on their papers, work on their Australian papers, and all that kind of stuff. 4:13 So it was a real productivity killer. So all of that is to say that the context of which I arrived in 2004 was, uh, there w- in the UK, there was not really any specific immigration program at the time. 4:29 So it was a very, very small. I came as a student, and that was pretty much one of the few ways, uh, in which you could come. But even then, it wasn't, I mean- Yeah... 4:38 it, it wasn't like now where you, you had to really get an admission, you had to raise a lot of money, that sort of thing. Uh, so, so that was one thing. So, so the numbers were not high. 4:49 There was no care worker route or something at the time. 4:53 Uh, uh, you know, this was something that came under Boris Johnson when, you know, the government felt like, okay, maybe this might be a route for us to open things up and get a lo- And people, again, this is another thing that just sucked out a lot of people from Nigeria. 5:07 So, so back then, when I came in 2004, it was, there, there were very few people. The people who came were mostly students or in a very rare case where maybe you got a job and the job then filed for you or something. 5:22 I remember back then, um, I, when I, when I qualified as an accountant two years later, I was working with, and I, and I realized that actually 5:31 I was, I was doing the accounting for, uh, a client who had a fast food chain, and I was surprised to see that she had a couple of staff who were just, you know, uh, working in, in the kitchen of the fast food chain, and they actually filed, uh, papers for them. 5:47 Uh, I mean, um, you know, work permits for them. But back then- Yeah... 5:53 that work permit was, uh, it wasn't very attractive in the sense that a company filed a work permit for you, you were stuck with them for five years, and they would always pay you below market rates because, I mean, you couldn't leave. 6:07 If you leftYou had to then get another company to take on the, the work permit. 6:14 And but I remember vividly back then that most companies when, when you mention work permit to them, they, they, they don't, they didn't want to hear anything about it because people didn't really know what it was about, you know. 6:24 It was a lack of knowledge more like than anything else. So companies did not want to do it just because they didn't understand what it was about. They didn't understand the rules. 6:33 There were rules where you had to advertise the role in paper or something for a while. Uh, so, so those numbers were low. By default it was low. So people coming for work was low. 6:43 People coming for studies was probably a, a, a bit higher, but was still low, and all that kind of stuff. Then maybe some people came as a result of family or some kind of thing. 6:54 So, so for me, the big change happened while I was already here, you know. And I came here and I was studying for the first couple of years, and then the UK government decided to come up with a, um, 7:06 uh, something called a, uh... They called it a highly skilled migrant program at the time. So which kind of like allowed people to come in, and I, I wrote an article about this, uh, many years ago in, uh, Quartz Africa. 7:18 But that program sucked in a lot of people from Nigeria, and then increased. And but again- Yeah... the nature of that program was that it was bringing in people who already had, um, uh, middle class careers in Nigeria. 7:33 Uh, they, they were skilled, they were talented, and they were high earners. So a lot of those people came here and they didn't need to, quote-unquote, "wash dead bodies." You know, the joke we, we make at that time. 7:43 So those people came here, and crucially in, uh, different to what, uh, I mentioned earlier, the highly skilled migrant program was a, um, it was a work permit, but you were not tied to an employer. 7:58 So the work permit was- Yeah... in your name. So basically you apply for a job. They ask you, "Oh, what kind of work permit you have?" You just say, "I have a work permit." And the company is happy. 8:08 Like, they don't have to do anything. All they have to do is just check, make sure you have it, and then they employ you. And if they don't pay you well, you don't like it, you leave and you go elsewhere. 8:15 You go other place. You go elsewhere, you know. And, you know, and you're offered a, a, a clear path, right? So they give you first for two years. 8:22 In those two years you have to earn a certain amount, and then you renew it. And then if you me- And the amount you had to earn was, I mean, it wasn't ridiculously crazy. I think maybe it was like something in the... 8:33 Uh, but, but the more you earn, the more points you got. And then after two years, then you then filed again, and then you got it for three years, and after that, you know, you are, you are good. 8:41 So after that it became, uh, indefinite leave to remain to permanent, and then maybe one year later again, uh, you, you apply for citizenship. So six years. But in fact, l- they only changed it to five years later. 8:52 Previously it was one and three. So one year, three years, uh, four years, and then, you know, so five years to... 8:58 You know, so, so that, that one was the first big change I witnessed while I was here, in the sense that it then brought in people from Nigeria. So people who had banking jobs in Nigeria. 9:08 You know, people who were working in oil and gas. And, you know, as we mentioned earlier, people who had hit that ceiling, that plateau in Nigeria, where if you are earning so much- Yeah... 9:17 money, your kids are doing okay, but, you know, your quality of life just cannot rise to a level. So in Lagos, I mean, you, you are earning 10 million naira, but you can't go to a park, you know? 9:28 You can't, you can't take a walk. [chuckles] You can't take a walk on the road or that kind of thing. Uh, you know, you still, the generator fumes and all that kind of... But it's still there. 9:36 So people, you know, people who want more, that sort of thing. So, so I think that was the be- first big change. What we are witnessing now is a different sort of immigration. 9:44 A different, you know, it's not pulling middle class people. It's pulling different kind of people who are going to maybe need a few more rungs to climb and all of that. So, so in general, I think that, that's how, um... 9:54 So while I was here, when I first got here, it was very low. 9:57 Very, very few people who were either-- Most of the Nigerians I met were people who were born here or had family here, or they came here as students or something. 10:06 And then it was later on while I was here, then I started seeing professionals, you know, people coming from Nigeria who had already achieved a certain level of... And they just came here. 10:17 Straight away they were able to get jobs in financial services, in all kinds of different industries and, you know, and they, and they, and they, and they, they, they, they got onto the middle class ladder here quite earlier than a lot of other people did. 10:34 Yeah. That's, that's, that's pretty interesting. And, and you make some really interesting points because it-- So often we, we just talk about immigration or we forget that it really is out of our control. 10:46 Like, it's really just dependent on what does that country need. You know, we just say, "Oh, we want to immigrate." Yeah. Yeah. But it, it's really about what does a country need at this point in time. Mm-hmm. 10:58 If the US says, "Oh, we don't want anymore," you know, you see people start saying, "Oh, no, what are they doing?" But the truth is that 11:04 immigration is, it comes from there to you, and then you now say, "Oh, this is the program that works for me." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's their policy. I mean, we always think about, oh, somebody came in. 11:15 But I mean, if, if the US, someone, they think about these things a bit deeper than we do. So maybe they might decide that they need farmers or they need carpenters, you know. 11:23 And they open things up to carpenters, and then maybe 10,000 Nigerian carpenters join. And then after a while they just decide that, okay, you know, we don't need carpenters anymore. 11:32 People start thinking that, oh, maybe, um, uh, oh, oh, some- maybe it's a new government that has come in or somebody else has come in that's changing. 11:39 Sometimes that's the case, but the reality is that you have to think about what was the reason why they did it in the first place. So like visa lottery, for example. Yeah. It was, it, it was a deliberate act, right? 11:51 They, they needed people and, and the US has, uh, always been a land of immigration, so they will constantly need a, a, to replenish people over a certain period of time. 12:00 The visa lottery was, uh, was quite an interesting one because it didn't actually require qualifications, which is a, a bit unusual. They didn't-- They really just needed- Yeah... people to come.Yeah. 12:11 Unlike now where, you know, a lot of the-- I mean, to go to the US now, you, you need some level of qualification, some level of, you know- Yeah... um, talent or skill to get in there. 12:22 But the visa lottery was just, it was just a, a random lottery. I mean, you put your-- In fact, uh, there's a funny story that I always, I always tease my wife about it. Like, for some weird reason, 12:33 her town, the town where she comes from in Ondo State, that town had probably the highest per capita number of people getting visa lottery anywhere, maybe even in the world. 12:44 [laughs] It's, it's-- I, I have no idea how it happened. It seems like somebody just knew about it, and maybe it was a volume thing, and people just decided that, "You know what? 12:52 From here, we are going to be just applying and..." But, but so many people out of that town, just a small town in Ondo. 12:59 In fact, they have almost kind of like an association in a part of Maryland in the US now where a lot of people just went. Oh, wow. Yeah. 13:06 But, but again, you know, it, it might just be a question of internet because, you know, obviously you needed internet back then. Yeah. And internet in the '90s was very, very scarce. It wasn't... So- Yeah... 13:16 maybe somebody who had access to internet just decided that, "Oh, here is something," and then was just bringing people in. Again, this was a pool thing. 13:24 It, it wasn't like the people of that town did anything special to get into the US- Yeah... or anything- Yeah... that kind of thing. 13:29 So, so we are constant-- Because of the nature of Nigeria, a country of 200 million people, almost always in economic crisis, people want to leave all the time. Yeah. 13:39 We are constantly responding- Which is sad, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're constantly having to respond to what other countries are doing. Yeah. You know, y- 21 years, that is a while. 13:53 So if you think about it from a sense of... And I'll still ask the second part of this, second part of this question, um, um, what I'm about to say. But if you think about it from a sense of, 14:05 you know, I, I tell people that like immi- for, as immigrants, when you move to a new place, there's this thing where you always feel like you're the other, like you're the other person in there. 14:16 And I can imagine moving in 2004 to the UK, like that sense of otherness is probably... Would you, do you think it's the same? Has it been the same till now? And this is not a function of you integrating into society. 14:31 It's more of a function of as you've moved through and the different waves of immigration has happened, has it gotten, has that feeling of otherness gotten better because there's more people coming in that look like you, or 14:42 do you think that that has never really changed, it's just been you, you've had to integrate into the society- Mm-hmm... for that sense of otherness to, to, to disappear or to reduce? Yeah. Yeah. 14:53 So that's a really good point and a really good one. So I, I, I went through my own journey. Um, I think for my first two or three years here, I always say I was pretty much one leg in, one leg out. 15:05 When I got here, my, my plan was over. My initial, you know how we, we did. And- Yeah... the deal was, it wasn't too crazy at the time. You know, Obasanjo was still in, in power. 15:15 There, there seemed to be something about reforms happening. So my whole mind back then was that once I finish my qualification, I'll go back to Nigeria. And so I just... 15:26 I mean, the UK was almost kind of like back- background noise to me. All I did was I had a job. Uh, I mean, I was working in a, in a, in a betting shop at the time. So I had a job, and then I used to go to school. Yeah. 15:37 And pretty much that was my world. And, and then maybe later on in 2006 summer, I started going to, uh, a church, a Nigerian church. They're called Jesus House. And then from there, I started meeting more Nigerians. 15:51 It was a very Nigerian church. I, I mean, but, but for those first couple of years, I was pretty much just floating here, and I, I didn't feel I needed to do any kind of integration 16:03 or anything of the sort because, I mean, hey, I was going to, I was going to go back anyway. Go back home. That was my-- Once, once I... You know? But, um, 16:13 I always say I start, I, I started reading books about UK history, and I, and I think there was a particular book, one of those books up there, the orange one, "The English and their History." 16:21 I always say like, it was kind of like a really real turning point for me, mainly because the book brought the country alive to me in a, in a very weird way, in the sense that things started to have meaning. 16:36 So for example, in that book, there, there's a, there's a story about a plot where some people plotted to kill the king, um, to kill the king at the time. 16:46 It was called the, uh, the James Plot or something, the King James Plot, that kind of thing. Sorry, the Rye House Plot. And it was later on I discovered actually Rye House is just two stops from here. 16:57 And, you know, I, I mean, the, the, the place where they gathered, so they gathered in a, in a kind of like a pub, which was in the, I don't know, I think it was in the 17th century, about 300 or 400 years ago. 17:07 The place where they gathered was just down the road. And, and, you know, so it, it's, it's actually, I, I mean, I take my kids to go and play. 17:12 There's a go-karting place where, um, where Lewis Hamilton learnt how to, you know, do racetrack and all that. So that's where it happened. 17:20 And then places I, I was passing every day, I would just all of a sudden, like when I used to go to school, I would get down on Liverpool Street, which is kind of like a, a big station in, in London, and then I would maybe just take a bus to, to take me to school. 17:35 And then later on I just realized that I just saw a build- There's this building that had been there forever, opposite, uh, opposite that station. 17:43 And one day I just looked up and I saw, hang on, so this is Robert Peel House. 17:48 And obviously in the book I had gone about, you know, Robert Peel is the man, is the prime minister who actually, uh, who set up the Metropolitan Police. 17:56 You know, the, the, I mean, we- they, they call them bobbies today because kind of like a tribute to him, because Robert, Bobby, that sort of thing. It's the reason why we call, you know. 18:04 But, but so there were so many instances like that where things that I had never really bothered about, but yeah, I mean, you're walking around London, you see statues, you see parliament, you see all these guys. 18:14 They don't really make any, um-They don't make any difference to me and all that. 18:18 But, you know, so that kind of just engaging at that level with British history began to make the country, like I said, come alive to me in a very interesting way whereby, okay, I felt like 18:31 it gave me a bit of confidence in the sense that, okay, I could talk to people about English history. I, I dug deep, uh, deep a bit. I could, I could talk about certain things. 18:40 I had at least a basic knowledge, even just for conversation. Uh, and it, and then it opens up who you can talk to. Yeah, yeah. 18:48 It opens up the kind of conversations you can have, and it just generally brings you out of your own world, uh, in, in, in that sense. So, so I guess that for me, that was kind of like a, a bit of a turning point. 19:00 And then obviously I also talk about Kemi Badenoch. I, I mean, I've known her since like 2000 and I think I met her here in 2006 or 2007 or thereabout. And she was interested in UK politics. 19:14 And I'm like, "What kind of weirdo?" You know? Why would you want to go into-- I mean, for me, UK politics was just something that was happening. Uh, you know, I, I mean, I saw the Prime Minister on TV. 19:25 I saw MPs on TV and all that kind of stuff. It was just, it was something very-- It was a completely different world far away from me. But yeah, I met someone. 19:32 And we kept talking and I'm like, "Here is someone who actually wants to get into politics in this country." And I'm like, "Okay." 19:37 Uh, I went-- I remember going for her very first fundraiser, you know, and I was like, "Hmm, okay. I mean, why are you doing this? All right." 19:46 And then we, you know, we got-- And from there, again, that kind of like opened, uh, different worlds to me. And it basically, the effect of all these things was to kind of like just draw me a bit more into the country. 19:58 And, you know, I say all of this in appreciation of the fact that everyone's journey is different, in the sense that some people just never do it. Uh, some people, they, they never come out of their, of their world. 20:09 I mean, I have people I've met-- I had people back then I was friends with who live a 99.9% Nigerian life in the UK. They speak Yoruba at home. They eat Nigerian food. They go to Nigerian churches. 20:24 They only go to Nigerian parties. It, it, I mean, they, they don't-- They only venture out of their world maybe if they have to talk to somebody or another. 20:32 You know, people live like that, and some of them, you know, they, they've been here decades like, like that. So, so my circumstances, maybe I was fortunate, maybe and all of that. And I just thought, okay. 20:45 I started to think that, "Hmm, okay. Maybe I can actually live here." I mean, like, first of all- Mm-hmm... no one is chasing me from here. Uh- Yeah. In the sense that nobody's chasing me away from here. 20:57 I had gotten a good job, and the job paid me very well. And I mean, the, my immigration status, even though I had not become a citizen, but it was clear. There was a clear pathway. So it wasn't like, uh, I wasn't, mm... 21:13 I, I, I-- Basically, my, the question for me was time, in the sense that if I do all the things that my status requires, in five, six years, I know where I can get to. 21:24 As long as I, I keep my own part, I trust the government will keep their, their own part. So it was kind of clear. And I just thought to myself that, okay, maybe, uh, maybe, I mean, I can stay here. 21:34 Like, I mean, why am I going to Nigeria, going back to Nigeria? And then, and then not long after I met my wife and, you know, s- and that just kind of obviously- No, that, then you're, you're done for... 21:45 definitely, you know. She was here as well, you know. She kind of changed the calculus and then obviously I'm not going anywhere, [chuckles] that kind of thing. 21:51 [laughs] But, you know, [laughs] you know, but, but when we-- I, I remember when we moved to where we live now, it was a-- I mean, this town is a small town, market town. It goes back to Roman times. And 22:05 it was-- I mean, I, I, I think maybe in the first couple of days or something, I just thought, "Hmm, what have we done here?" You know, in the sense that you could not see another Black person at all. Oh, wow. At all. 22:18 I remember the first time I saw a Black person around here. It was so weird that I just saw them across the road, and I t- and we just started walking towards each other because it was such a strange- Ah. 22:30 Uh, you know, we just walked towards each other and we just started talking, and then it turned out that they were Nigerians as well, uh, and all that. Now it's a lot different. 22:37 So we've lived here, where we've, where we live now, we've lived here, uh, about 11 years now. We actually have a couple of Nigerian friends not too far away who live around. 22:45 And, you know, we talk to people, that sort of thing. 22:48 So, but back then it was quite, um, I mean, when we moved in, it literally, you know, we were the only Black people where, I mean, we live in a small estate of about maybe 70 houses, and we were the only Black people here. 23:01 But I mean, but nobody ever, you know, abused me- Nobody complained... insulted me. Nobody. And, and personally, um, me, just the way I live is that I'm actually, I'm actually okay with a very quiet life. 23:12 I say hello to my neighbors and I go and come back and I'm not, uh, you know. So, so, you know, those kind of things, you just start to realize and think to yourself that, "Hang on a minute. What am I-- 23:23 Nothing is chasing me from here." And this country, and when I take stock of my life, you know, this country has been kind to me. In some-- Again, it's a personal journey for everyone. So over time- Yeah. Yes, yes... 23:35 you know, I found myself kind of like, and like you said, 21 years passed. To be honest, sometimes I don't even know where the time has gone. I always say that I, I only have, I only remember certain landmark years. 23:49 So I remember, for example, maybe the year when I got my first major job. I rem- obviously, I remember what happened the year when I got married. I remember when we bought a house. I remember when the kids came. 24:00 But there are some years in between that I, I mean, if you ask me what happened in 2012, I can't even, [chuckles] I can't even really, really think. 24:09 But obviously I can remember 2013, my youngest son was born, uh, that year. That, that kind of thing. So it's, uh, it, it's been a long journey. 24:17 Time flies and-One thing I've come to realize is that a lot of things in the West, which I, I think a lot of newer Nigerians struggle a bit with that, there is no substitute for the passage of time for certain things to happen for you. 24:33 It's of-- I mean, it's just the way it is. You know, you are going to earn more, you know. You're gonna earn more after- Well, you have to put the time... than you did. You-- Exactly. 24:42 The time, there's just no, there's no way you can shorten the steps. You can't compress the time. You can't, you can't skip the ladder because these are kind of like organized societies in certain ways. 24:53 So I mean, like now I know how much I struggled to get a job in my early years. Right now is a lot easier. I have a long track record. I, I don't even apply. 25:05 If I needed a job now, I probably wouldn't have applied for a job. I'll just send an email or ring up a couple of agents and say, "Look, I'm on the market. I'm looking for a job." 25:12 And, and you know, they'll be like, "Oh, okay. I mean, I know this guy. I've worked with him several times." But so all those things just happen, you know. Unfortunately, it's just the passage of time. 25:20 I, I mean, coming from the Nigerian context where we can skip steps quite a lot in a lot of things- That's the problem. It, it, yeah, yeah. That's our problem actually. 25:29 It, it can be jarring for people in the sense that, hmm, I mean, take something like a credit history. You can't magic it. You cannot accumulate- Yes... a credit history in one year. It is over time. 25:42 There's just no substitute for it. And the better your credit history gets, then you start to all of a sudden you almost feel like you're wealthier because you get cheaper loans. 25:52 You get, you know, you don't have to work too hard. Sometimes they throw stuff at you, uh, you get a mortgage easier. But it's not-- There's-- How, how are you going to do it? There's no... It takes time. 26:03 I mean, my credit history, I remember [chuckles] when I look back now, when I look at my, when I was a struggling student and what my credit history was like, it was a nightmare because I didn't have, I mean, I, I was broke. 26:13 I didn't have that much money. And you miss one bill here and there, and then you get a- Yeah, it hits you hard. Yeah. But for over time, you know. 26:21 So, so those things are-- I, I don't know what the solution is for anyone just to understand that 26:28 you have to make a commitment to say, "Okay, I actually wanna stay here," or, "I think I wanna invest or I want to commit to being here for the next 10, 20 years, and then I'll just focus on that." 26:40 I think you can still keep ties with Nigeria. I go to Nigeria regularly. Uh, uh, I mean, I, I doubt there's a year I, I... 26:48 Maybe one year or two a couple of years ago when I didn't go at all, but there are years when I've gone four times, there are years when I've gone three times, once, twice, that sort of thing. I've been this year. 26:57 I, I'll definitely go again next year. So you, you can maintain. And I'm in all kinds of WhatsApp groups where all we talk about is Nigeria all day. But- [chuckles]... 27:07 it does not take away from the fact that, and obviously my Twitter as well, it, it's, uh- Yeah. heavy. But it does not take away from the fact that this is where I live. This is where I earn my source of my living. 27:19 This is where my family is. This is where pretty much anything of value I own is. And, you know, it's my country. That, that's just the way- Yeah... uh, I view it. 27:28 And I've just made that commitment to say, you know, this is, this is, uh, this is United Kingdom for me, at least for whatever the foreseeable future is. Yeah. You know, two points I want to kind of dive on, dive into. 27:46 The first one is that thing about time. I think when I talk to a lot of Nigerians, um, we, we struggle a lot with that 'cause, you know, in Nigeria we can shortcut almost everything. Of course. 28:01 Like you can, you can find your way around. And so we come here, and then we start arguing about, I'm like, "Look, time must pass." The question is, what are you going to do with it? Because the system demands that. 28:17 So I think what we struggle with is we, we, we've come to a high trust society, but what we forget is that in high trust societies, when you're new, you need to earn the trust of the society. 28:32 The system needs to trust you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you can, we can get into conversation whether you, whether we like how the system operates or how the system tries to build trust. Mm. 28:43 But the, the, the thing about when you're trying to dealing with a lot of people is that a system will devolve to what are the biggest things I can pick on, your credit history, how you pay your bills, how you behave, how... 28:55 It, it just, it takes all those things and then starts to build a profile on you. Yep. And I, I'm like, I said to them, "Whether you, you can't change that." Like, oh, you, you wanna get a job. 29:05 You, you want to have jobs lining up for you, or I'm sorry, like you might be lucky and get one, two the first time, but over time, if you've not built up a history of being consistent, good results over time, at some point the system goes like, "No, that dude is not trustworthy," and it just pushes you to one side. 29:23 That is the system, you know? And so you see us, like you said, that's, that's one thing a lot of new Nigerians struggle because also because Nigeria got worse and our low trust society and getting shortcuts got worse. 29:35 And so we come here with a more heightened sense of, I can get what I want, I just need to find someone I can pay for it. Mm-hmm. The system is like, "No, you can't just pay for it. 29:47 Like you have to tell us that you deserve it." You can just, you can just get into trouble for nothing over, you know, over something like that. Yes. Oh, yes. 29:53 And I think, you know, I, I think we also might maybe slightly struggle with the idea of what a middle class life entails. Here, um, 30:03 you don't need to, to be fabulously wealthy to enjoy some basics in life, uh, in the sense that your life is not precarious in that way. If you have a job, 30:14 you have a job and all, and you know, you have a, you have a wife, both of you earn a certain amount of money, there's just a baseline level for which-You know, you will, you'll be able to-- you'll be okay. 30:25 You know, you will have all the things. You have a car, definitely. You don't need to-- I mean, you can get credit to get a car. You will be able to live your life in a, in a dignified way. 30:35 You will have TV, cable TV if you want to watch that. You definitely have internet and water and electricity at home, and you have a phone. You can have a very nice phone. 30:44 You know, in Nigeria, those things are a bit more precarious in the sense that they are reserved for even when you are doing well. Uh, uh, and this is something that- You struggle to get them... 30:55 uh, and it's even topical right now in the sense that, I mean, we see that the incredible economic shock that Nigeria has gone through in the last one year since the new, uh, government came in. 31:05 And now I hear, I see, I see and hear of people who were doing well just a year or 18 months ago, they are struggling now because every so often we get this like nasty devaluation that just almost kind of like removes the bottom from a lot of people. 31:22 And I mean, you are, you are a, you are working, you have a decent job and you can eat turkey at home. All of a sudden a devaluation comes and you can't eat turkey anymore. 31:33 I mean, here, even when we had post-COVID inflation, the worst that could have happened is that you reduce the amount of chicken that you eat. But chicken- Yeah... 31:43 would never not be, uh, you know what I mean, chicken would never not be- Yeah... be out of reach for you or pasta or those k- those kind of basic things. 31:52 So b- because those basics in Nigeria are so precarious in a lot of ways, you know, it, it leads to this sense of, oh, it's where our accumulative kind of culture comes from. 32:04 You put somebody in a position and then the person just wants to take everything just like, "Ah, this thing can be taken away." Yeah. That's what. 32:09 So, so I think we, we don't-- we struggle a bit with the idea of what that middle class life means. And here, a middle class life is almost something for, it's a chill existence. Put money in your pension, 32:22 you know, save as much as you can over time, retire and have a decent... By, by the time you retire, you've paid off your mortgage, the house belongs to you and, and that's, I mean, that, that's it. 32:35 That's the life in the sense that you pay off your mortgage because in the UK, you know, when you pay off your mortgage, it's actually a celebration. 32:43 They, for, for some banks, they do a ceremony for you in, in the sense that it's a big deal. Like, yeah, when they, when they invite you to the bank, they give you, they go and bring out... 32:53 I mean, somebody was describing it to me one time, like they go and bring out a, a box from a safe and they sing for you, they dance for you, all that kind of stuff, and then they, they hand you the, you know, this is now yours for life. 33:04 And, and when you look at the stats, you know, in the UK, I think the last time I checked, over 60% of homeowners don't have a mortgage. People have, uh, they've actually paid off their home mortgage. 33:15 So it's the dream in the sense that just keep paying. It might take you 30 years, and which is a long commitment. 33:20 Uh, it might take you 30 years, it might take you 25 years, but you retire at 65, you've saved into your pension, and you can just... 33:27 I mean, retirees here, when you see the way they live, you see that they are, they're just maybe just traveling, spending time with their grandkids or that kind of, or maybe they just take on a part-time job. 33:38 I remember some retirees who were living next door to me some years ago. They were just-- I mean, they were working in the supermarket, right? 33:44 They, maybe one day a week, they just go to the market, help to stack shelves. Not for any reason other than the fact that, uh, maybe just, first of all, keep active and then, and then maybe just earn some more. 33:55 They were sorted. I mean, they were living in a big house which obviously had been paid for, that sort of thing. 34:00 And then the rest of the time they just do exercise or hang out with their grandkids and that, and that's it. So that is the, the dream of a middle class life. 34:07 In Nigeria is a, is a bit different in the sense that you can stack up all those things. One de-- yeah, one devaluation might come and then it resets you to zero. 34:17 So people are, um, the- almost the idea of what a middle class person is, is almost non-existent. So, uh, I, I think again, that's another thing we struggle to translate in the sense that 34:29 if you're gonna stay out here in the West, you can actually commit to it for, it's a 20, 30 year thing for you, depending on when you arrive, in the sense that do everything you have over time and then you just live a, 34:42 you know, a fairly decent life. But, uh, which is why a lot of, like you, like you said, you know, a lot of people come and they want to hurry, they want to rush, they want to skip steps. 34:51 You know, they want to buy a house the very next day. But really, society really needs to figure out who you are. Yeah. Yeah, that, that house one is... Hmm. 35:03 We moved to Canada and then within one year people started asking us to go and buy houses. I'm like, "What, what are you guys talking about? Like, why should I buy a house? Like, why should I do that?" 35:11 They're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, you get it." I'm like, "Why do we do that to ourselves? Why do we get into all this?" Like I-- Tobi Oluwa- Odu- Oduwole or Oluwole, he, I just, I just read his episode. 35:22 He calls it like operational Olympics. We're just getting into operational Olympics with ourselves. Oh, I need to get a house. I need to get a Mercedes Benz. 35:28 And like the, the system's entirely different and the system punishes you for any wrong call you make. Any wrong financial call you make, the system will punish you because it's an algorithm. 35:39 I mean, yeah, algorithm can, can be seen in different ways, but the system just has certain points and once you miss any of those points, system just puts you in a certain box and you have to now work two times harder to get out of that box. 35:51 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's just the way it is. Secondly, you talked about which I abso- sorry? No, go. Carry on. Yeah. Yeah, no, I said the second thing you talked about, which I absolutely loved, was 36:04 that example you gave about when you started reading the history books and you started feeling a sense of belonging. You know, it, it ties into something I've been thinking a lot about, the, the sense of 36:17 what does the whole self mean for an immigrant? Like, what does it mean to be your whole self? 36:23 Because you see people say to themselves when they come and they sayI can't bring my whole self or they say that my whole self is not accepted. And I'm beginning to think that 36:37 when-- the day you move to a new country, your whole self is not whole anymore because you've literally left your country and moved to a new place. 36:45 So you saying that your Nigerian self is your whole self is you lying to yourself because you now live in the UK, for example, and so it's a different culture. 36:55 And so you, your whole self is your Nigerian self plus the UK self that you can accept. And then when-- but when we say, "No, I'm not gonna accept the UK self or the Canadian self, I'm just gonna be my Nigerian self," 37:09 I, I feel like you st- you struggle with a lot of things. And I sometimes I wonder if 37:16 Nigerians always love to compare, you know, we say, "Oh, the, the, the Asians and the Indians have done much better than us from an immigration community point of view." 37:26 And I wonder if part of that struggle is just the fact that we have re- sometimes we refuse to really accept the society that we've moved into. 37:36 We keep rebelling against that society, and so we never really learn how to, you know, navigate or find or understand how that society really works. And so we say, "Oh, our society, our community is splintered. 37:50 We're not one. We're not doing things together. We're not-- We don't have enough economic power. We don't..." I don't know. 37:57 It's, it's just a thought, and I wonder if you have any things to it, because that point you make about that story you told, 38:04 like, it, it is so brilliant that just once you accept the narratives of that new society- Yeah... you start to understand it, and then you start to feel like you belong. 38:13 And I feel like a lot of things just happen from there just because you understand the way the society works. Yeah. So I think that's a, it's a good point. 38:20 And I think, again, using myself, my own personal story as an example, I think we obviously make things a lot harder for ourselves, 38:29 uh, than they should be, in the sense that there is no fixed way of integrating into a society. Uh, there is no fixed timeline. 38:41 You know, it, it happens differently for a Jewish person, it happens differently for an Indian. Um, so in that sense, we don't need to make it 38:52 harder for ourselves than it should be, in the sense that we are not working to a clock. What is required is the internal decision that says, "Okay, I want to step out of... 39:03 I'm comfortable enough stepping out of who I, who I, or of my own world and stepping out into this larger country, this large society where I've chosen to make my home." 39:14 And it requires you to be at peace and comfortable with yourself. 39:18 First of all, I think that's the, that's the first requirement, in the sense that just because I go out and eat non-Nigerian food, it doesn't take away from, it doesn't diminish my Nigerian. 39:28 It's not taking away anything from me. You know, I mean, right now, there is almost no kind of food I have not tried. But, you know, my wife will still cook, we still cook Nigerian food at home. 39:38 We have Nigerian stews in the freezer, all that kind of thing regularly. You know, my kids as well, we've introduced them to a, a number of different stuff, but they also try different things. 39:47 I mean, the kids, they will-- when they make breakfast for themselves, they make, they'll make pancakes or whatever, that kind of thing. But they also know that, they, they know what Nigerian food is. 39:58 You know, they'll eat eba and all that kind of thing. So being comfortable with yourself, I think is the very first step, in the sense that, okay, I am at peace with who I am. 40:09 I'm comfortable in my own skin, in who I am, and as a result, I can step out into the wider world without any fear or, or any kind of fear. And I mean, 40:23 whatever anyone, whatever type of immigrant anyone might want to call me, there are just some things I don't do, in the sense that they've just not been me. 40:29 So I, I know one of the things I struggle with, uh, a lot was the culture of after work, going out for drinks at a pub. I don't drink. Uh, and, and it is not a religious thing. 40:42 I just, I, I missed the part when I was younger when I should have learnt how to drink alcohol, and I can't do it. I can't be doing it, [chuckles] I can't be doing it to my old age. 40:51 I, I can- I don't have any tolerance for alcohol at all. I don't, I don't, I don't... I mean, I, I have some bottles of wine at home. They can last a year. 41:00 Uh, uh, when my friends want to make fun of me, they, they actually, they come over and they give me alcohol. They, some of them can be here for years, you know, or a bottle of wine. I, I have a, 41:11 almost a morbid fear of getting drunk. So there's just- Hmm... I will not, I will not con-consume any kind of alcohol that even, even at the risk of getting tipsy, I will not go there. So, so this thing, um, 41:26 I mean, when I started working in the city, in the corporate world, uh, I noticed that, I mean, after work, people will just go up to the pub and then they'll talk. 41:35 And your manager or your colleagues who may be quiet in the office, they become a very different person. People relaxed a lot. And I paid a price for it because in, in the sense that 41:48 after a while, I mean, there's also, I, I just didn't want to. I just wanted to go home. And I realized that a lot of things were being discussed when I wasn't there, you know. 41:58 And, you know, people will talk about you, that kind of thing. But after a while, I tried. I tried, "Okay, let me start trying this thing. 42:05 I'll go, maybe sometimes I'll take, I'll have apple juice and that or that kind of thing." And I just thought, "You know what? I can't do this. It's not me." Uh, you know, it's not... 42:15 I mean, I would do it to the best of my ability, but a way I've compensated for that is that I try to build relationship with people in the office while we're at work. And I talk to people about travel, 42:28 about any kind of thing, about food, about family. I can have a conversation with, you know. Uh, and that's just my replacement for it, so that-I am just not a robot in the office where, um, you know- Yeah... 42:39 you can talk about is work, that kind of thing. And to replace for that. And, and that's just been my way. Again, this is, this has been my own way around that. My wife is completely different. She hangs out. 42:50 She, she talks to everybody. She's very, very friendly. She can talk to people. She can strike up a, a conversation with people very, very easily. 42:58 You know, I'm a bit, uh, I'm a bit more socially awkward than she is, but she, you know, she'll go around and, and all that kind of stuff. You know, she is on a scale of integration, is she more integrated than I am? 43:09 I don't know. I mean, it depends on who's asking or who is, who is measuring. But at the end of the day, she is not doing something that she's uncomfortable with. That is the key thing. Yeah. 43:19 You know, she's not pushing herself. So, so we have a lot more autonomy than we realize in the sense that, oh, ah, I want to integrate. Does that mean I have to start eating, um, ch- uh, fish and chips every day? 43:35 No, of course not. Uh, uh, and I say this only about Britain because Britain is a, is a fairly more relaxed society in, in a lot of things. Well, there's just some things in terms of, you know, your personal behavior, 43:48 you know, general politeness at least, you know. I mean, there, there are parts of the integration culture. For example, you see somebody on the train, we, we do our fake smiles. 43:58 Like somebody says, that one I can do it 100%, no problem. Nobody can, uh, you know. But, but there are other parts. So, so I think, I think the key thing is that 44:06 when we talk about this thing, people don't realize how much autonomy they have in the sense that there is no set time. Integration is not a five-year thing. 44:16 It's not you have to complete it by five years and you have to do an exam at the end. You have to... 44:20 The fundamental step, the fundamental thing is that you start off from a point of being comfortable with who you are and comfortable in your skin. 44:29 Once you have achieved that, then you can step up, then you can begin to do, uh, different things or, or kind of... I mean, I, right now, the, the... 44:40 I have-- When we moved out here, like I mentioned, when we moved out here, it is a very, very white town. I, I don't-- It, it does not affect me anywhere anymore. 44:50 There are so many places that we go to where we will just by default be the only Black people. It's not something that bothers me. I can strike up a conversation with anyone. Sometimes I don't notice. 45:00 Uh, it, it will be like maybe I've been here one hour, I just realized, or maybe like maybe I take my kids to rugby or something and I just realize that, hmm, actually we're the only Black man. 45:09 I just smile to myself here that I didn't even notice that I've been here for one hour, that sort of thing. 45:13 So again, it just requires you to first be comfortable with yourself and then push yourself to push the boat out as far as you, you are comfortable with, and then take it from there. So there is no... Yeah, yeah. 45:28 I, I think people need to just tell themselves that and realize that bit first and foremost, that it starts with you. Uh, it starts with you. It starts with how you have co- uh, how you've gotten yourself comfortable. 45:43 How... I mean, in, in my time here in the UK, 45:48 before, you know, when I first moved here, the only type of Nigerian restaurant you could find were what you might call proper Nigerian restaurants, in the sense that when you go there, everybody there is a Nigerian. 45:58 And it's, it's, it's purely Nigerian food, so there'll be a lot of pepper. Um, and then or, or the food, the... If you, if you mistakenly go and ask for goat meat or something, you're gonna sit down there for one hour. 46:11 I can never forget, there was a time where we went to one place, uh, in Wembley called Mama Calabar. 46:15 We were there for well, almost two hours waiting for the food to come, and that was just, that was the Nigerian food experience for many years. 46:24 Any Nigerian place you go to, you're going to-- Or they might tell you that there, there's no plantain today or there's no jollof rice. It's just a typical, it's just a typical Nigerian restaurant, but in the UK. 46:32 [chuckles] And then over time, in the last couple of years, things have started changing. So the first one was, um, Ikoyi, Ikoyi Restaurant. Yeah, yeah. It was a Nigerian guy with a British friend. 46:44 And, and then I remember when it first opened, it was, it was Nigerians mostly. So I went there quite a number of times. And then I remember the first time I went there with a couple of-- I took someone. 46:55 One of my people came from Nigeria, I said, "Let's take, let's take them there." And I took someone there, and ac- right across from us was sitting Gary Lineker, and I just thought, "Hmm, okay. Things are... 47:05 Something is going on here." You know. Changing. And he was struggling with the pepper. Yeah, he was struggling with the pepper that it was, it was red in the face, but I mean, he was okay. 47:12 And then now I don't even, I can't even afford to go there anymore [chuckles] because the prices have gone up ridiculously. But now we now have 47:21 a, a number of other different Nigerian restaurants where they actually like, if you step in it, it is actually like a normal high-end restaurant in the sense that the food will come out on time and they've done all kinds of experimentation with the, with the food. 47:34 So they present you something called moi moi, it might be black. You know, when you taste it, it's actually moi moi. [laughs] Those kind. So they've done all... I mean, we have chefs. 47:43 A couple of Nigerian restaurants have won Michelin stars here in the UK in the last, in the last year. So this is a kind of evolution that has happened in my time here, which I'm grateful for. Yeah. 47:55 And, and all that kind of stuff. So it's, uh, again, this is all a question of time. Now, when you go to those places, to those Nigerian restaurants, as a Nigerian, you are almost guaranteed to be in the minority. 48:07 I mean, I, I've been to the, there's this- That is beautiful. Yeah, yeah. There's this Nigerian restaurant, um, that, you know, has been, uh, it's been open for just a year. 48:16 Uh, been getting-- I've gone there several times. I take, I take people there all the time. It's, uh, the, the chef has... She won. 48:22 She, she became the first, uh, Black female chef to win a Michelin star, um, earlier this year. 48:28 I mean, when you go there, there are, there are times when I've gone there where I'm definitely the only Black person, you know. 48:33 A, a, I mean, you see people, and they've toned down the pepper so the food can travelA, a, you know, non-Nigerian will struggle Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We'll not struggle, we'll not struggle with it. 48:43 So if I want, quote-unquote, "the authentic Nigerian restaurant," I can-- I know where to go. I can go to Eight O Five. I can go to Enish. That one, it will be pepper. It will be only Nigerians there. 48:53 And but, but, you know, the experience is broader, which is the beautiful thing. So- Yeah... i-i-it's not just one type of thing anymore. It's everything. Yeah, I can... 49:03 If I want a higher-end Nigerian restaurant, I can go. If I want a proper Nigerian restaurant, I can go. So again, you know, these, these are the kind of things that I'm really grateful for, and in the sense that 49:15 it takes time. You know, this is, this is the thing we're talking about. The passage of time needs to happen for so many things to change and for you to get comfortable, to get out. 49:25 And, and the people who are launching these restaurants were Nigerians who decided to be comfortable enough in their knowledge of Nigerian food, in their skills as Nigerian chefs, and then to push the boat out. 49:37 Otherwise, we would have been in a world where Nigerians were opening Nigerian restaurants for Nigerians. Uh, and we would have just been stuck in. And that went on for a long time. 49:49 It went on for more than, at, at least in my time here, it's gone on for decades. And then but people have gotten comfortable- Yeah... enough and now pushed the boat out, and now, you know, so many different people. 49:59 I, I mean, I celebrate this all the time, but I say Nigerian food is having a moment in the sense that it is now something- Yes, I agree. I agree... that is, it is actually traveling beyond. 50:08 And these are the kind of thing we, you know, it, it takes time. I, I wish it had happened shorter. I wish it had happened in 10 years, but if it's taking 20 years, like I said, there's no clock running. 50:18 The people who have done that are integrated enough and now pushed the boat out, and here we are today. Yeah. 50:26 You know, the, the-- my biggest takeaway, I mean, honestly, is we'll, we'll probably have two more questions then round up. 50:31 But my biggest, I-- my biggest takeaway for me is that thing you say about, like, being comfortable with yourself, like just accepting who you are, because that's really the battle. 50:40 The battle is when you're saying you, you-- when you've not accepted who you are, then all you keep doing is getting angry and reacting or feeling hurt or wondering why. 50:49 But when you accept, okay, this is who I am, and sh- because once you accept who you are, you stop feeling inferior. 50:54 And when you stop feeling inferior, then you're able to push the boat out and just say, "Because this is who I am. How do I add all the beautiful things here to who I am and make myself better?" 51:04 Because I, I, I say it all the time, I call immigrants in-betweeners in the sense that we will, depending on when you leave Nigeria or when you leave your home country, you will always... 51:15 My kids probably are very different, but even the kids themselves are not exactly that way in the sense that you will always never fully feel Nigerian anymore, and you somehow, because of your Nigerian background, you always never feel fully British. 51:30 But the, the, the beauty is that you're somewhere in between. You have, you have the British culture and Nigerian culture, and while we talk about it, I say that thing is actually a strength. 51:40 It's like that fusion of cultures is a strength because you're a new, you're a different person from the average British or from the average Nigerian. 51:48 So once you're comfortable in that, then why don't you share that with the world? Why did you sit back and go like- Exactly... 51:53 "Oh, I, I wanna hold on to my Nigerian self" or, "No, okay, I'm gonna fully assimilate and become British." I'm like, you're actually like- And don't be afraid that you are going to lose yourself... 52:01 you, you've lost it all if you do that, you know? Yeah. And, and, and to not be afraid that, oh, by stepping out of my being, by stepping out of my being Nigerian, I'm going to lose... 52:11 I mean, for me, I will always-- a part of me will always be Nigerian. There's just-- nobody can take it away from me. Yes. 52:17 So even if I, if I try something else, if I live somewhere else, it's just never going away from me. So that, you know, uh, by stepping out of my own comfort zone does not mean I'm not losing anything. 52:30 You know, I'm only adding to my experiences of who I am, because what I have, I already have. What I'm going to get is an addition- Yeah... 52:37 to make me a, you know, a more rounded person or whatever, however you might choose to describe it. Yeah. I think I, I wanna explore this with you, and this is probably the, the last, last thing. 52:50 But it's, it's kind of tied to what we talked about being comfortable with yourself, which is, so people get up, move to a new country, especially when you move from certain kind of, kinds of countries, 53:02 your socioeconomic status changes. Like it, it just, everything just kind of gets all muddled up. And 53:11 as I'm just w- I, I always wonder, like, what does it feel like in the head or what do you, what are your thoughts on that? Like, you know how you move to a new country, 53:20 y-you be- you become less of who you were before instantly because you're trying to catch up, you're trying to get a new job again, you're trying to find your footing. 53:29 Any thoughts on that and how people can kind of navigate that thing, you know? [chuckles] Yeah. So yeah, that, that, that's a, that's a tough, is a tough one. 53:38 So, you know, like I mentioned earlier on that the people who, the Nigerians, those set of Nigerians who came in the early 2000s as, uh, highly skilled migrants or, or even the, the more recent tech nation guys, they, many of them have skipped all of this. 53:52 So when I came as a student, I mean, I remember my first ever job, this was just like a... I, I was-- I hadn't actually started school, so, so it was, I, I, I came maybe like a month before school started. 54:04 So back then, the rules were that in out of when you are not, out, uh, outside term time, you could work full-time, and then obviously once you, once school started, you could only work 20 hours a week. 54:16 So I was just trying, "Oh, let me just try and get some." And I remember the first ever job I did. Man, it was, [chuckles] it was a challenge. Like, it was in a care home, and it was basically, 54:30 I was supposed to, it was basically cleaning and all kinds of stuff. 54:34 But once I got into the care home and I just realized, hmm, I couldn't do some of the parts of the job that required maybeYou know, lifting elderly people and all. 54:43 So I just quickly told them that, "Hey, I don't mind doing the washing on the toilets and the carpets and all that kind of thing." And I did all of that all morning. 54:51 And there was a guy who was supposed to be my supervisor, Ghanaian guy. When he just saw that this guy, this guy seems like, seems like he's a JJC and he, he likes working or he wants to work. 55:01 I've just-- So the guy just quietly left all the work to me and he was just pointing me, he's like, "Oh, go and do that place." 55:07 Even, uh, at the end of the day, I wasn't even sure what I was supposed to do and what he was supposed to do. But anyway, he kept on directing me, and he just made sure I did everything. 55:14 So later on at the, at the end of the day, the guy was now like, "How do you talk like this? Like, you talk like..." I was like... So I now mentioned that, "Oh, I, I finished university in Nigeria before coming." 55:23 He said, "Ah, okay. That, so you, you're actually a university graduate and you're coming to wash..." He was almost looking at me like, "You're a university graduate and you're coming to wash toilets. Good luck to you." 55:33 He didn't, obviously he didn't say that to, out to me, but that was what he said. So, you know, that was the first time he made me think about it now. What am I doing here, doing this kind of job? But again, 55:46 there's no easy solution to this. It will test you. 55:49 It will challenge you, especially when you're coming from Nigeria, maybe especially people who are, who are middle class people in Nigeria who have had, maybe they've had house helps, two house helps working for them. 56:00 They had drivers, that sort of thing. And then you come here and you have to do everything by yourself. It, it, it's, it's challenging, but all I can say or all I can add is that anything you do 56:18 out here where it is honest work and you are paid for it, there is no indignity in it. It, it, it is, it-- That, that's just the way it is. There is no indignity in, in earning a honest living out here. 56:34 And I have friends, I've, I've met people here, especially my kids when, you know, when we play football. I mean, some of the people, some of the parents are, they come from all walks of life. 56:44 They're, they are executives, and there are people who are carpenters, who are plumbers and all that kind of stuff. We all hang out together. We all, you know, we all talk as friends. 56:56 We just, I, I, I, I mean, some of them I've learned so much about the, the work of carpentry and that kind. So there is no indignity in that sort of thing. 57:05 It, so it comes down to the point that it is in your head and it's in your mind in terms of, you know, how much- It's our culture. Exactly. And you know, hey, I was a big man in Nigeria. 57:17 Now in this different context, I'm almost kind of like I'm lost. Um, I, you know, it's, it's a loss of status. And, and, and to be clear, a loss of status is a really big issue for human beings. 57:33 And you, you see, and this is not unique to Nigerians. You see people can become extreme, especially in Western society. We can see that a lot of people who are 57:43 voting for extremes, for example, some of it comes down to the fact that people just feel like a loss of status or, or in the sense that I expected to be middle class and I'm still struggling at this point, and people get angry about those things. 57:55 So, so those things are, they are, they are real human feelings. You cannot quantify them. You cannot put them on a spreadsheet, but, but they're there, they're real. Uh, but, but for an immigrant, your, you have a, 58:08 yours is slightly different in the sense that you are removing from one context to another. So it's not as if you are in the UK, you are rich, and then you suffered a serious reversal whereby you then became poor. 58:21 You know, maybe you were rich somewhere else, and then you came to another country, and then you're starting all over again. 58:25 So in a way, you can view that as a sort of help for yourself in the sense that, look, I was there. I am here now. I'm starting a new life. That loss of status is known to me. 58:42 It is for me and me alone. Nobody's looking at me and saying, "Ah, look at that guy. He was a, he was a big guy in Nigeria, and now look at him here." Nobody's looking at you that way. Nobody cares, frankly. 58:54 You know, so, um, I've forgotten the way someone put it, but, you know, a lot of the problems that we hold in our head, absolutely nobody cares about. So the key thing is, as long as what you're doing is honest work, 59:10 you know. I mean, I remember when I-- That, that time when I, when I first did th-that job and then I did a few other odd jobs, and I got some money. I think I got, I can't remember what I got. 59:19 Maybe like 100 pounds or I, I, I got 100 pounds or 100 and, or, or 200 pounds. I, and I, I bought a phone. I took out a phone line, and I was quite happy with myself that because when I was in Nigeria, 59:31 when I was in Nigeria, when I was in university and GSM came out, I couldn't buy it. My mom had to send... I mean, my family were here. Yeah. My mom had to send money. They had to send money for me to buy a phone. 59:41 So they, I-- And obviously this was back then, ah, like maybe 20,000. It was a lot of money back then when, when phone first came out, when you had to go to a s- a shop and go and get a phone. 59:52 But I couldn't, I couldn't buy the phone by myself. And after a while, the phone just became a receiving device because I could not afford to put credit on it. 1:00:02 So they w- It was only for them to call me, and I would receive calls on it, or maybe they send me money and then I put, I put credit on it. 1:00:08 But so I was an adult technically, but I, I had no autonomy over little things like that. But here I was, I washed toilets and I got a phone, and the phone was in my name. I paid for it. I didn't rely on anybody. 1:00:21 Nobody gave me any money. You know, from that moment in 2004 when I bought the phone, I have never relied on anyone to pay my phone bills for me. In fact, right now I pay my mom's phone bill. 1:00:32 You know, I even pay my kids' phone bill. You know, but as an adult, I have never had to rely on anybody to pay, to, to pay that phone bill for me, 20 plus years. So I had my autonomy. 1:00:42 I-When I had some money, I went to the stores, I bought, I bought... I, I remember one of the first things I bought was a Walkman because my train journeys and bus journeys were quite long. 1:00:51 I bought a Walkman back then, you know, listened to... Again, all of these things, I didn't rely on anybody to do it for me. It was the money I earned. Once I got paid, I went out and I got it. Got 1:01:01 shoes if I needed it, bought clothes. But there was a dignity to all of that in the sense that I did not have to go and beg anybody for money, you know? Hey, the job may have not been fantastic, you know. 1:01:14 After, luckily I got to a job where at least I had to wear a uniform. I was standing behind a counter for most of the day, but at least, you know, it, it was dignified. 1:01:24 I, I knew exactly how much I was going to p- get paid. And as long as I stayed within my means, I would never run into trouble. I knew how much I was gonna pay. 1:01:31 If I wanted to earn more, I w- I needed to just work a bit more, you know? And sometime the job, I mean, in summer periods, that job where I was, I was working as a, a manager in a betting shop. 1:01:43 In the summer periods when the days were long, uh, where it, it would get, um, it, it gets dark later then, there were days when I would work 14 hours, you know? But I remember back then I had a girlfriend. 1:01:56 She was, she was in Nigeria. She was coming over and just to plan that, oh, while she was here, at least I'll have money and all that, I, I ramped up my working hours. 1:02:06 Like literally ramped up my work [chuckles] like a month before she came. I was-- There was a, there was a period where about two or three weeks straight I did not have a day off. 1:02:16 I was literally working 13, 12 hours a day, literally three week. Until somebody I worked, "Hey, mister." Like, okay. No, no, no. One day somebody looked at my time sheet and was like, "Hey, slow down," and all that. 1:02:27 But I earned that money and when she came, went out, went to restaurant. I did not borrow money or anything from anybody. 1:02:35 Obviously it wasn't like, it wasn't like fantastic amount of money, but again, all those kind of things was autonomy. I didn't have to go and borrow money. 1:02:41 I didn't have to go and ask anybody for money like, oh, that kind of thing. Um, you know, so that loss of status is real. It's something you have to deal with, but 1:02:53 you can take advantage of the fact that this, the, your two different sta-statuses are in two different contexts. It would be a lot worse if you lost- Mm. -your status in, in the same location. It would be really bad. 1:03:08 In your case it's bad- Yeah. -you know, but take that and just take it to yourself that again, these are the questions that you, these are the things, conversations that you have, you can only have with yourself. 1:03:19 You can only have it in your head. There is nobody else that can do it for you. 1:03:22 And once you have that conversation with yourself and you're comfortable, again, you just, you, you take that step and just say, "Okay, you know what? What I'm doing here is honest labor. I'm working towards something." 1:03:33 In my case, I was obviously studying at the same time, so I knew that as long as I did everything right, my situation, I was never gonna be washing toilets forever. I was never gonna be a cashier or, or- Yeah. 1:03:44 -washing forever. So it was a kind of motivation for me that, okay, I can move myself up, uh, a, a, a ladder or two once that time is right. So, 1:03:55 you know, that, the fact that I was a graduate with my graduate degree, I was washing the toilets, it was, yeah, it was tough to take, but like I said, you know, when I got paid that money, it reduced my reliance. 1:04:09 It became... It made me autonomous, independent. I like how you keep going back to that. [chuckles] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It g- it reduced my autonom- it reduced my reliance on anybody else. 1:04:17 After a while I wasn't asking my mom. I was staying with my family. At least thankfully I, I, I had, um, I, I had to stay with someone, you know. 1:04:24 But even after a while, you know, when I moved in with my brother, we started paying our own rent by ourselves, you know. And this was just within a couple of years. Again, that was the first time, you know, I mean, 1:04:35 I, when I, I all of a sudden I was responsible for the roof over my head. I mean, what if something happens? Like if I couldn't, if we couldn't pay the rent, both of us, it would have been quite, you know. 1:04:45 But we grew up, I grew up really, really fast. So even though I came here as a, an, a, as an adult or what I thought was an adult, the proper adulting- Mm. -that we talk about, it started here. 1:04:56 In the sense that if I had stayed in Nigeria, I could probably stay in the house. Somebody else would be paying the rent. I had a car which somebody else bought, you know, and I could rely on people and maybe, you know. 1:05:08 But the adulting, uh, here, you know, when we, when my brother and I moved in together, we were paying our bills. We were paying the electricity. We were paying the water. We were paying the rent. 1:05:20 And then eventually after a while, after a year or two, we were able to afford cable, you know, and then we, and then we got, we got cable as well where we could watch, where we could watch stuff, you know, all those things. 1:05:31 So that it, it, it... I mean, my brother was working in a store at the time. I was w- I was working in a store as well. We worked all kinds of funny hours. In fact, there was a period when my brother was working nights. 1:05:44 He was doing night shifts overnight. But fundamentally it was dignified labor. We did not beg anybody for money. You know, we did not, we did not need to. 1:05:54 And so these conversations, you know, to wrap up, it is really just something you just have to have in your head and just say, "Nobody is looking at you." 1:06:02 Nobody is looking at you and thinking that, "Ah, look at this guy. He was once a big man." Uh, it's nobody cares, is the, is the thing you need to tell yourself. 1:06:12 And once you have, once you get that, focus on your goals, focus on what you're trying to achieve, and the journey might take you through some really rough places, but the goal, the goal remains the goal. Yeah. 1:06:29 You know, uh, one thing, you know, when you f- you, you mentioned the point, we just kind of reiterate on it, is you see that point on dignity. I, I, I really respect the West for that. 1:06:41 You know, I say every time that-One is you walk around and people are working on stuff, and no matter the job they're doing, that's their job. There's respect in that. Mm-hmm. 1:06:56 I really, like, I really appreciate that with the West. Back home, it's, it's not there. We tend to look down on certain people. We have a, we're a, we're a very classist society for a country that is that broke. 1:07:06 We're very cla- we're, we're very classist, and it, it hurts, you know? And then even the other one for me is the one where 1:07:13 I always say, you see people who are not, like, who, people who are not fully bodied or probably have a disability. Mm-hmm. But still, the society designs systems that allow them to find their way. 1:07:27 And I said to someone that for me, like, that is the core of it all. 'Cause I have a friend of mine who has this theory. He says, you know in math, HCF and LCM- Mm. 1:07:37 Like the highest common factor and the lowest common denominator or something. Lowest common multiple. He says Nigeria is designs itself for the HCF. Most of the Western countries are designed for the LCM. 1:07:51 So yes, they do, the elite still do all they do, and they can be corrupt and stuff. 1:07:55 But the point is that more often than not, the system has guardrails in place that ensures that the lowest common multiple is, to some extent, taken care of. 1:08:06 In Nigeria, the HCF is all, we design our society around what's the highest common factor. 1:08:13 And that cultural difference for me is, is part of what also we sh- part of a lot of things we see behaviors immigrants come with sometimes, and they, because we think we still come with that highest common factor. 1:08:26 The sy-system is not designed that way. Like, it's, it's, it's a very sensitive topic, to be honest. 1:08:32 [chuckles] I think a, a good point on that is, you know, like, because I've lived here now for 20 plus years, I've seen, you know, that's enough time for me to actually see things change. 1:08:41 And one of the changes I've seen is just how much effort and work and money has been spent into disabled access for people. 1:08:51 So in 20 years, I've seen it whereby you see on even just curbs on the roadside, they, you know, they've dropped the curbs- Yes... just for, just for wheelchair. And, or, or even buildings now, it is now 1:09:05 more and more, it is now any kind of public building now, it is now hardcoded into the kind of things you have to design a public building as if a wheelchair user is going to come in or as if a disabled person is going to come in. 1:09:19 Yeah. And if you don't meet those requirements, now it's all hardcoded into the law. So, so all those things, like, you know, and, and this is something that's happened just, you know, over time. 1:09:28 I've seen it gra- I mean, it was already there in bits and pieces when I got, but over time now, you see buses, for example, a bus, 1:09:36 every bus now has a, a drop, a drop entrance where if you are, if, if you are, if you're a wheelchair user, the driver sees you, he'll just drop it and then, you know, your wheelchair can just climb, and then he can even lift you up. 1:09:49 You know, trains as well. Yeah, yeah. Seats are more and more reserved for either pe-disabled people- Yes. Yes... or even preg- you know, those kind of things. 1:09:57 So all of those things are, are, and they cost money, you know, to reserve... 1:10:02 I mean, sometimes the train is, is very, very packed, you know, but to actually reserve a space and say, "This space is for somebody who is disabled," and everyone respects it. 1:10:11 Or to even retrof- some, some, you know what I mean, the UK, for example, we have a lot of, uh, or is, Britain is an old country. 1:10:19 You know, I always say like the documented history in the UK, where people have been writing history down here, is well over 1,000 years, about 1,300 years old, where you can go back here. 1:10:30 So, so and then we have buildings that have been built centuries ago. So the actual cost of actually retrofitting a lot is a, is actually a, is not a trivial cost in the sense that a building is old- Yeah... 1:10:43 it was built, you know, and then now you have to actually make it compliant with, for people with disabilities. So these are, these are costs that people are actually, it's not, it's not lip service. 1:10:54 People are putting their, their, their money where their mouth is. Any restaurant, any public kind of place, you know? 1:11:02 So, so those things, like you said, they're, they're, they're actually really good things in the sense that at least somebody has designed society to be, to a, to some degree, at least to a very good degree, be comfortable so that you are not going about the society be- because you're a disabled person, your life just feels miserable in the sense that so much is closed in to you. 1:11:25 Yeah. You know, you can't enter this place, you can't enter- Yeah... this hospital, you can't enter this building. Those kind of things at least elevate you that as much as possible you and I are the same. 1:11:35 We are both human beings- Same, yes... and there's a basic level of dignity that we accord each other. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a, it's, it's so, like, it's such a beautiful thing. I think my last question for you is, 1:11:50 21 years, like, if you think about all you know right now, and if someone was coming to the UK today, like, I mean, you, I, I feel like you talked a little bit about it, but what's the one thing you think you would tell them is like, "Hey, just keep, bear this in mind. 1:12:04 It's a great way to kind of start off and be successful in the UK"? Hmm. Okay. I think the, the, the, the, the things I will say is, I think the first thing I'll say is get comfortable with yourself and decide, 1:12:21 make a commitment to yourself. You don't need to say it to anybody else. You don't need to tweet it. You don't need to put it out in public. Say to yourself that, 1:12:29 "I want to commit to this country," or, "I want to commit to this society, and I feel like I can make a success of myself and be a valuable member of society here." 1:12:42 Once you've answered that question within yourself, then everything else becomes clearer.You know, you get a job, your first job is never going to be your best job. 1:12:57 It's never going to be the one where it's never gonna be your life job. So it is always a stepping stone for you. And the straight and narrow is, is tough. It can be lonely, but 1:13:11 be ruthless in the company you keep in the sense that- Mm. If you find yourself hanging around people who are constantly advertising one shortcut or the other, walk away. And, and this one, I cannot stress this enough. 1:13:28 I mean, there were some people I met when I first got here very early, and these people were, mm, you know, and I just had to ba- basically just walk away because I don't know where I'll be now if I had stayed, you know. 1:13:41 So walk away from things that deviate from those goals. You know, any kind of short-term-ing thing, they can be attractive, they can look attractive, they can look tempting, but you... You know, records are kept here. 1:13:57 If you- Yeah... end up, if you have a criminal record or something, those kind of thing, they will just stay with you for a long time, you know, and you, you'll just, you'll just waste your time. 1:14:08 Pay attention to your credit history, your credit record, uh, you know, monitor it closely. Again, this is something I didn't do, but I can tell anyone now that please do it. You know, whatever you can do. 1:14:19 And now, thankfully now, back then, the only way I could get my credit report was by paying. You know, you had to pay, so, so you had to pay money to get it. Now, there are different ones. 1:14:29 I mean, some banks even give it to you for free. You know, you get, you get it on a weekly or monthly basis. Pay attention to your credit history. Get a driving license, uh, [chuckles] as quickly as you can. 1:14:44 Do the test, pass the test, get a driving license even if you're not gonna be driving, but at least get the, get a driving license. Those things, I just feel like they're just valuable. 1:14:52 You know, pay attention to your credit history, get a driving license, and be ruthless in the company you keep. Just because somebody is a Nigerian, you know, does not mean that 1:15:05 you are obliged to stay in a relationship with the person, even if it's risky or detrimental to you. There are many Nigerians- Yeah... you know, there are, there are many other people. 1:15:14 And, you know, just, just be very, very careful with that kind of... 'Cause, look, we all come from different parts of Nigeria, and we know our country is a, is the, is the definition of multiculturalism. 1:15:28 We have 200 languages. Yes. Two hundred plus tribes. And then, I, I mean, we all come here. We all come from different upbringings, different backgrounds, that sort of thing. So, you know, keep ruthless company. 1:15:40 Be ruthless with your company. Focus on your goals and make a commitment. Once you've made a commitment... If you don't want to stay, that's fine. It, it might not work for everybody. It's not for everybody. 1:15:52 Some, you know, some people come, they don't like it, they go back. Some people come or they go elsewhere. It's not for everybody. But the key.. You are the only one who can answer that question 1:16:04 to yourself in the sense that, is this place for me? Look around you. What is the goal of a, a, a decent life in the UK? You know. Look at, look at what it entails. What is the definition of a decent life? 1:16:16 You own your own home, you pay your mortgage, you have a family, bring up your kids, that sort of thing. You don't need to be a millionaire or a billionaire. All those things are, they are irrelevant. 1:16:26 You are not going to starve just because you're a billio- you are not a billionaire, you know. But what is- Yeah... the goal of a, of a decent life? 1:16:32 To live in a decent neighborhood, low crime, uh, you own your own home over time, and you build... If you need to build up your pension or, or, or, or build up assets, that sort of thing. 1:16:43 And then once you've considered all of those things, what they entail, and then ask yourself, "Is this for me? Is this what I want? Can I commit to this? Do, do I want to do it?" 1:16:52 And once you, once you've answered that question to... Like I said, it doesn't need to be public to anybody. Once you've answered that question to yourself, then just start working towards it. Yeah. Thank you. 1:17:05 [chuckles] Thanks a lot. Thank you so much, Feyi. Thank you so much. No worries at all. No worries. Yeah. That was a, that was an interesting- This was really good. Thank you so much. Oh, this was so good. 1:17:17 [chuckles] Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Um, you know, I, I really like that thing where we, where we talked about dignity. 1:17:25 You know, the idea of dignity, just the idea that society, no matter the job you do, society treats you with some form of dignity. As usual, thank you so much for getting to this part of the episode. 1:17:38 If you know someone who's gonna enjoy this, please send this to them. If you know someone we should talk to, send them my way. Like, subscribe, follow us, and as usual, have a beautiful day. 1:17:50 [outro jingle]
