Transcript 0:00 I struggle with small talk. I mean, I do it when I have to, but I really struggle with small talk. And Denis gets it. 0:09 Like, it was a relief when he said he understands, because sometimes I, I feel like I'm, you know, I'm cuckoo. 0:16 Because, you know, it just feels like as an immigrant, it just feels like there's so much you need to achieve or stuff you need to catch up with, and 0:24 even though small talk is necessary, it just kind of feels like it's just you just... I don't know what the right word is. 0:31 [laughs] But if you're out there and you're an immigrant, please let me know if we, just me and Denis, are the only ones who kind of have this struggle where 0:40 you're like, "Hmm, I don't know if I have time for this right now." Yeah, let's get to it. [gentle music] I'm just gonna first ask the question, 0:59 did you, did you think about the, the weather when you were moving to Canada? Like, when you chose Canada, was weather like, oh, the weather is, can be funny. Was that part of your conversations? Uh, n-n-not really. 1:12 Honestly, I-- when I was moving to Canada, I just wanted to move somewhere. [laughs] Uh, just to have, have a fresh start, and I wasn't doing that much research or, like, that wasn't [laughs] one, one of my concerns. 1:25 It was a surprise though, for sure, [laughs] because of the- [laughs] But, but I mean, you're from Ukraine, right? And- Yeah... I know that it's, it, it gets pretty cold there too, right? 1:35 Is it, is it-- Which is worse, Canada, Ukraine, which is worse? I'd say Canada for sure because of the length of the winter and- Oh... how much snow we have here, uh, in Alberta. I feel like Ukraine is more of a, 1:52 I don't wanna say BC winter, but something like that. It's more humid there. 1:55 It doesn't get as cold, uh, in terms of the temperature, but because of humidity, you still feel cold, and we do have snow, but again, not as much as here. Yeah. 'Cause I mean, I somehow in my head, I used to assume 2:09 that Ukraine kind of had the same winters like Russia. I don't know. I, I- It depends, I guess, where in Ukraine too, right? Like it's- Oh, okay... um, Ukraine is the size of Alberta, like very similar. 2:20 Um, so, and we have, you know, a lot of mountains, we have some, uh, sea, but then the middle part of Ukraine is pretty flat. So, um, but overall, yeah, it's-- we have four distinctive seasons. 2:33 Uh, and I, I think here in, in Alberta, it's more like two seasons, right? You- [laughs]... right from winter, you jump into summer. Um, so yeah, that's the biggest difference I'd, I'd say. And, and okay, so good. 2:48 Um, so building on that, what you said about you just wanted to move, was it easy? Was it hard? Or was it just like, "Yes, I'm just moving. I don't care." 3:00 Like, I don't care what I'm experiencing right now in the moment of trying to- Mm-hmm... move to a new country. I'd say the move itself happened quite fast and easy. 3:09 Maybe, I guess I just got lucky, 'cause I know some people spent quite a bit of time, you know, some-sometimes even years preparing to move, applying for different type of residency applications. 3:20 For me, it was like a New Year's resolution. I decided that, you know what? I want to move, uh, to a different country and t-try something else. 3:28 And then one of my friends said, "Hey, I got to know this, uh, um, immigration agent who can help find a job in Canada." I said, "Okay, sign me up." And so basically in pretty much like six months, I, I, I was in Canada. 3:44 Okay, that's fast. [laughs] Yeah. So that, that, that part was really fast, and c-considering I also did like my English. 3:50 I studied English all my life, but then, uh, after graduation, I st-started, started, st-started to work in Ukraine, and sort of English went in the background, and so I had to like do a refresher, get all the- Mm... 4:03 paperwork. And, uh, uh, that part I-- maybe was a little stressful just because it was like short timeline, but it happened, and I moved. Um, and at first, you know, like everyone else, I guess, uh, the, what is it? 4:17 Pink-shaped glasses, like everything is great, uh, until you start to listen to yourself and, uh, maybe learn some other things. So then, yes, that was an adjustment afterwards for sure. 4:29 We're going to stay on this for a bit 'cause, you know, I call this fat phase of immigration the honeymoon phase. 4:34 Like, there's a part in when your i-immigration journey where everything is beautiful, and then at some point it hits you like a sack of potatoes like, gosh, like this is- [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. For sure that happened. 4:48 When was that moment for you when you're like, "Okay, like this is, this is, this is tough?" I'd say it came i-i-in stages. [laughs] Um, partially because, uh, when I moved to Canada, I moved to a small town. 5:02 Uh, it's called Olds. So my first year was in this, uh, town of eight thousand people, and, uh, I spent there. 5:10 So the first sort of difficulty was, I guess with most of the newcomers is, uh, especially when English is not your first language, it's just inability to express yourself, like you're losing part of your personality. 5:22 And, um- Mm... that, that was an adjustment. That wasn't as fun. But I, I'd say within a year I moved on from that part. Um, but, but, but then, uh, but maybe partially because I went to school, right? 5:38 Uh, I went to Calgary to SAIT, and then once you just immerse yourself in this environment of speaking, writing, uh, reading- Mm... in English a lot, then, like I, I just got very comfortable. 5:52 But then the, the other transition was about, uh, how do I convert like all of my experience from Ukraine into something, uh, like tangible that can help me get a job in Canada. 6:05 And I think that was a harder hit for sure, uh, that-I'd say I struggled for some time, but, uh, I guess I was lucky to meet some people who encouraged me and helped me believe in myself. 6:17 Um, so that, that, that's in a short, short way. I don't wanna make it a monologue. [chuckles] Well, that's okay. That's okay. 6:24 I mean, it's monologues are generally be the best, best, best parts of these, these conversations. I'm gonna come back to the tr- Mm-hmm... 6:31 the school part and transition and all that stuff, but I wanna stay on that one year in Olds. Mm-hmm. Like, how did you handle that time? Because I can just imagine when you wanna say something- Mm-hmm... 6:42 and you don't have the full range of words to say what that thing is, or you, you're just like, "Okay," like, "how do I express myself fully?" Like how was... How did that-- How was that one year for you? 6:53 Did you ever regret like, "Oh, why did I make this move?" You know, all this- No, not really... like what was going through your mind? Yeah. I, I, I don't think I regret that move for sure. 7:02 It, it was not easy, but I'd say people were generally nice around me, and the-- like there were some, uh, stories that, uh, I made some mistakes that I can't really [chuckles] share out loud, but- [laughs]... 7:15 because, bec-bec-- like in, in a conversation with customers, because I came to work in a, a hardware store. Yeah. 7:22 And, um, I was working at the paint desk, and, uh, I was eager to learn new words, uh, and some of them didn't come out the right way, and then the customer just at some point of time just looked at me, turned away, turned around and went away. 7:37 And then, uh- Oh, man... next, uh, the next week, our employer, because there were eight Ukrainians working there, so our employer, uh, offered us, uh, English courses for free [chuckles] for all the Ukrainians. 7:48 So then all- [chuckles]... of the guys were blaming me. It's like, "Denis, that's you just because of your experience [chuckles] with that customer, so now we all have to do this." 7:57 But I mean, again, just the gesture itself, you know, just the free, uh, courses. Yeah. Uh, that, that was nice. And a lot of people were still understanding, so I'd say Olds was actually not bad. 8:07 It was like a slower pace, a smaller community. 8:10 Um, I never felt like an outsider, although, I mean, I knew that I'm an outsider, an outsider, like my culture and background is ve-very different, but no one would really make it an issue. Yeah. 8:22 I, I think you raise a really good point about 8:25 maybe sometimes it does make sense when you're moving and you just trying to settle in, and you move into a place that is slower paced, so you-- I can just imagine if this was Toronto or Calgary or Vancouver, you know, that you went through, like the pace there is faster. 8:41 [lips smack] It's just a different culture. Maybe it's- Mm-hmm... a bit harder there than when you move to a smaller town. Everyone is-- takes their time, and everyone has the patience- Mm-hmm... 8:52 to wait for you to find yourself, that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. 8:57 And I think it also depends on the personality in terms of like the communication, because a couple of, uh, Ukrainian guys who were there, um, I think they were like mentally comfortable with the level of vocabulary they have, and they just- Mm-hmm... 9:11 used it really well to express. And you know, like the simpler the better sometimes. [laughs] So that's what it worked for them. 9:16 But in my head, I was like, you know, all these words that I know in, in Ukrainian, I just was thinking of translating them on the go, and it didn't work well. [chuckles] I stumbled a lot. Yeah. 9:26 You, you know, you know, I, I've heard this thing. Someone said to me some time that the worst thing you can do in English is to try to translate your native language to English. Like you- Yeah... 9:36 you just go confused because, so sometimes like in Nigeria, we, we learned English first. Like I learnt English first, and I learnt my native language. Mm-hmm. 9:45 But every now and then, sometimes you, you see this beautiful phrase in your native language, and you wanna find a way to say it in English, and then you just start to stumble. 9:54 Like I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I so like I've just learned to stop doing that because I feel like every single time I struggle. Now, I wanna come back again. I'm still staying under your first year. 10:05 How did it feel like that first, the first week, first month, new country, moved so fast, six months? Like [chuckles] how did that first week, first day, first month feel for you? Uh, it's a... 10:21 I'd say, you know, as you said, honeymoon stage. It w- it really won me hard, and I was just- [chuckles]... like not seeing any, any, any negatives. Um, I'd say I was surrounded by good coworkers. 10:36 Um, there were some, I guess, Ukrainian guys too that I didn't totally feel alone, and I was still able to speak i-in my language to someone. So in that way I think that that was a good piece. 10:48 So I, I had some sort of, uh, someone who can understand me, um- Mm-hmm... a-a-and I always able to express myself well. So, so that, that played a big role for sure. 11:00 Although, you know, like I never thought about it in the moment, but now reflecting back, I'm just thinking that, yeah, that really helped me, uh- Yes... 11:06 to have like a healthy mix of e-exposure to Canada and Canadian culture and still having, uh, that sort of comfortable, uh, way to relax and wind down and, you know, just share, uh, with someone who understand my culture and background in, in my l- my own language. 11:23 Yeah. Yeah. You make it re-- Like you had a... 11:25 That's a really good soft landing because I was talking to someone yesterday about code switching, how when, as an immigrant, when you come to a new country, you're switching between the new culture and your culture, and it can be mentally exhausting to just kind of skip 11:41 staying in that other part that you're still learning, you know? So if you just have that balance where you can come back to, you can be yourself without any airs, without trying to say, "Am I saying this right? 11:53 Did I say that word properly? Should I greet them this way?" Just with people who understand you, it kinda helps you just adjust slowly and much better to the, to the society. Yeah. 12:06 And, and it's funny you mention this because, well, again, in Ukraine, we're a bit more direct, or I, I should say quite a bit more direct [chuckles] than in Canada. And, uh- [chuckles] 12:16 Like we just get to the point, right? Uh, and w-without meaning any sort of, uh- [laughs] Like you don't mean, uh, any offense to the other person. And I remember- Yeah... 12:27 I, I use this as example now in my current work, which we'll I guess come back to that later, but, um, example of, uh, the [lip smacks] like customer service, uh, expectations of local, uh, culture. 12:40 I was, uh, chatting with my, uh, Ukrainian coworker, and we were standing in some of the aisles, and we were just like really work-related conversation, just trying to figure out what to do with a certain piece. 12:50 And then I see the client coming back from, from one of the sides, and I, uh, say to my coworker like, 'cause we're speaking Ukrainian, like, "Hey, could you, uh, slow down? There's a, there is a client." 13:01 And he, and he was like completely fine, but then he turns around and he, and, and he's like an older guy who has like really thick accent, and he just like turns around and right ahead asks like, "What are you looking for?" 13:13 [laughs] And, and, and, and, and the, and the, and the customer, who's Canadian, he just like, "I'm good," turns around and like walks away. 13:21 [laughs] And so that, that's something that I, I use now to as a story, like importance to say like, "Hello, how, how's it going?" Just, you know, the small talk. 13:31 Um, and, and then sort of you get to, to the, to the point of the conversation of... [lip smacks] Yeah, but- I-- That is so funny, to be honest. Mm-hmm. 13:43 Okay, now let's speed on to, like let's speed on to now, so you got into- Mm-hmm... Calgary SAIT. Um, why did you decide to move to go to school? Just asking. 13:54 So at that point of time, so I came on a work permit to Canada, uh, and, uh, I think my original plan was to, um... So it was two-year permit, and I was able to-- I was supposed to, uh, extend it for another two years. 14:08 So I was thinking to sort of save up some money and go to school eventually anyway, uh, because that was sort of the easiest time to immigrate at that time. So again, I came- Mm-hmm... 14:17 to Canada in twenty thirteen, but then I got an opportunity to borrow money, uh, and go to school faster. So I was thinking like, you know what? I might as well just, you know, speed things up. 14:28 Um, and yeah, so school was sort of like in the picture for sure, uh, a-a-as a better way to immigrate, uh, to get my permanent status. Yeah. Yeah, that it's always is a much easier way. 14:42 Now, so you spent one year in Olds, you've settled in- Mm-hmm... you had all the Ukrainian friends and all that, and you go to school. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 14:50 I know you, you had earlier said to me that school was a bit more interesting. There are people that it's- Mm-hmm... just, just speaking, writing English and all that. Mm-hmm. 14:59 But how did it feel moving from that comfort zone you had into Calgary, bigger city, more people, maybe more immigrants, but just different expectations? Like- Mm-hmm... how did that feel for you? 15:14 Definitely more challenging, and again, at first I didn't, wasn't thinking of that. Um, but I was sort of the first out of the, the Ukrainian, uh, crew that was in that har-hardware store to move out. 15:27 Um, and the first half a year I was just, just like completely by myself there. Um, and I guess the way I work, uh, my, my brain works, I was just like really focused on studying. 15:40 Studying and maybe just a little socializing, uh, with my, uh, schoolmates. Um, and that was I, I guess challenging in a way, but like at that point I was sort of prepared for it. 15:54 Um, so I can't say it was, uh, too big of a deal, although at moments it did feel a bit lonely. 16:00 But then I, again, one of my, um, Uh, Uk-Ukrainian, uh, friends and coworkers from that store also came to study at SAIT, so we moved in together as roommates, so it was a little bit, uh, easier afterwards. Hmm. 16:17 And now that you-- So just-- 'Cause I feel, I feel like what you're saying to me is that, yeah, like it was lonely and all that stuff. Mm-hmm. What were your biggest cultural shocks while trying to settle into school? 16:29 Like, what was the things as you hit you and you'd be like, "Ah, no, I don't understand this." [laughs] Mm. I'd say at first I didn't understand much the amount of team projects that were, [laughs] that I had. 16:43 [laughs] That was just like wh-wh-- A-and yeah, it was just like, like just let me, you know, show what I know and, but then you're supposed to like work with other people and, and I understand now that, and I actually appreciate it because it makes you learn more of working in a team environment. 17:00 Uh, and so then you're sort of more ready for, uh, actual job environment because you rarely work by yourself, so- Mm-hmm... 17:08 uh, navigating yourself around other people and getting to the common point is important, and I guess the school projects are, are a big part of it. 17:17 But yeah, it's-- And the other thing I guess about that, uh, what made it a bit more difficult, yes, I, you know, I'm, I'm older. 17:24 I was like twenty-six at that time, and, um, there were a lot of, uh, younger, uh, students, like eighteen, nineteen years old, uh, also just, uh, Canadian maybe didn't, uh... 17:35 And they, they weren't exposed to newcomer culture or maybe a newcomer. So that just like finding common language was, uh, a bit more difficult. 17:43 But I guess I'm always like thinking about what's my goal here, so I sort of didn't let those distractions happen. 17:49 And a lot of times I was actually leading to the, the, the project itself, like a project manager, I guess, like what needs to happen. Um, so yeah. 17:59 But that, that was definitely the, I think the biggest challenge of, of that first year of, of transition to school environment. Hmm. 18:08 Now, I, I, I, I, I hear you on that, but I wanna challenge you on that challenge you say the biggest challenge. Mm-hmm. So just, you had, you had mentioned something about being lonely. Mm-hmm. 18:17 And it was just you at some point'Cause I feel like your first one year you were balling. Like, balling is a Nigerian term for you enjoying yourself. So you are balling your first one year. 18:28 [chuckles] Now you moved to, [chuckles] you moved to... Yeah, you learned something today. You moved to Cal- to Calgary to school. Mm-hmm. You're by yourself. 18:39 There's all these kids who probably don't fully understand where your culture... I mean- Mm-hmm... 18:44 there's also the fact that you're probably much older and you have to kind of learn to kind of work with people much younger within you. 18:51 What did you miss most about home at that point, and what did you miss most about your previous one year working in the hardware store at that point? Hmm. I feel like I, I still, in, in terms of talking about, uh, 19:08 something I missed from home, I still wasn't able to express myself w-well enough or, like, to connect, uh, um, well with, with, uh, like on a personal level with Canadians. 19:20 And actually, yeah, I feel like I missed this point, but that was something that I feel like in Ukraine, uh, you open up with certain people much faster, like, and you get on a personal level much faster than in Canada. 19:33 And in Canada, you can, I don't know, know your neighbor for like several years and then, uh, it would be still a stranger to who you just occasionally say hi and, I don't know, talk about weather. 19:43 Uh, so, so that part was, uh, still a, I guess a pain point, uh, that I sort of missed from Ukraine, although I did get some school friends and I actually tried to, um, participate in team projects mostly with Canadians. 19:59 Yeah, I felt, felt like that was a push from inside to immerse myself in the culture. And, uh, in terms of, um, missing something from, uh, the previous environment from being in Knowles, hmm, I guess, 20:18 a-as you said, I was b-balling in a way, in a- [chuckles]... countryside way. Um, and, uh, 20:25 I, I, I, I missed that ability to relax more because, you know, at school you, uh, you, you're doing full courses, uh, and then I, I was, uh, fortunate to not work in the first year. 20:38 Uh, but then it sort of caught up to me 'cause I actually do need to work, uh, to s- you know, uh, provide for myself. Yeah. 20:45 Uh, and so then the, the ability to juggle, uh, work, school, and then looking for, you know, work in my field. Um, but, but at some point, like I... 20:57 It, it wasn't bothering me because I, it really started enjoying myself because it, it started to work out. But again, it, it was a, um, 21:06 not, not, not, not straightforward way and, uh, it took me some time to get to the point where I can enjoy being busy and doing it well. Yeah. 21:15 You know, you know, you raise a really important point about that Canadian culture thing where 21:21 you can have a neighbor who's been your neighbor for five years, and all you talk about is just, "Hey, how the, how's, how's the weather? The dustbin guys came around today, they didn't take your, pick up your dustbin." 21:33 Like, so there's this small talk thing. And you know, I was saying to someone that there are two things, and I agree that small talk is important, but it feels like 21:45 being vulnerable and open sometimes is not exactly a thing here. Like, people, you have to do small talk before you get to being vulnerable and open. Unlike back home where, because in Nigeria it's like that too. 21:56 There are just people where you just meet and you all just kind of connect and just open up to each other and talk and stuff, and everything is fine. And then the other thing that happens also is just that 22:08 I feel like as an immigrant, especially if you come and you're much older, 22:12 small talk is not exa- You actually feel like you don't have time for small talk because you have goals, you have targets to meet, you have stuff you need to do. So, 22:21 small talk, uh, I, I, I, I don't wanna talk small talk. I, because it happens to me too, so you are consciously saying to yourself, "Okay, just have the small talk." 22:28 But you, you feel like you don't have that time for that small talk. [chuckles] I can totally understand. 22:33 Like, this is something I still struggle sometimes these days when I, when I'm like preparing to meet a client or someone in the community and just like, "Don't jump in, don't jump in," you know, into what, what, what needs to ha- Just like take your time and, uh... 22:49 Or, or with email, with some emails, you know, when I re-re-reread it, I'm like, "Okay, now I need to add a little bit something," you know, the small talk at the very beginning. 22:58 It depends, not with emails it's a bit different, but yeah, that for sure is, uh... Mm-hmm. I don't know if I ever will be like that, you know? Maybe it's just who, who, who we are, right? Like in- Yeah. Yeah. 23:11 Maybe, maybe our kids are different, will be different or something if you are about to have kids. But I feel like us, ourselves will always be the in betweeners. Like we'll never be the full... W-we... 23:21 Because you're not fully Ukrainian anymore, 'cause you've lived here since- Oh, yeah... 2013. Yeah. Yeah. But you're not fully Canadian because you weren't born here. 23:29 So you're just in between somehow, that, that sort of thing. Now, so Calgary s- Calgary school, what happened next? Like, did you get the job you wanted to get? Did everything come as you wanted it to happen? 23:44 Or was it like, "Oh yeah, I still need to kind of walk through this journey and find the kind of work I wanna get"? Well, I, I think I s... 23:53 I tried to get the job right after the first year and, uh, basically when the summertime was coming, I, I thought of getting a job in the field, like in a bank. 24:01 But being on a study permit, you know, I had some limitations and, um, again, I was doing it sort of in more of a Ukrainian approach in terms of job hunting, and it didn't work, and I didn't... 24:14 I heard only from one bank, uh, where I-Uh, I had a connection. I just got lucky because one of my, uh, classmates was working in one of the big banks, and so she sort of introduced me to someone. 24:26 But then it sort of didn't work out because they're like, "Oh, you can't work more than like twenty hours or twenty-five hours, you know, while you're in school. Doesn't work for us." 24:35 And then when I started applying for summer jobs again for, like, accounting because I'm like, well, you know, or bookkeeping, I used to do that. Why not? 24:43 And then, you know, I didn't know where else to apply, and so it, it was pretty like a spiral downwards, um, of, uh- Mm-hmm... you know, keep getting rejection and rejection and rejection. 24:55 And eventually, I went back to work in a hardware store for summertime because I was like, you know what? I, I need to get going somehow- Mm-hmm... 25:03 and like to, yeah, money is still, uh, something I need to, uh, think of. And, but at that point, I got to, to a place where I was sort of full of self-doubt. 25:16 Uh, like, am I, you know, am I still able to do this type of job? It just like, you start questioning every single part about yourself. Like, maybe it's my, my accent or something. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm not enough, basically. 25:29 That, that was the, uh, the message in my head. And I think I got lucky by, um... I, I, I met this person, uh, who is, uh, like a friend of a friend of a friend. 25:39 And, uh, so we went once for coffee because actually she was looking for some, uh, like, advice or support. 25:46 Um, and uh, I feel like it turned out into the opposite, and she actually realized that, you know, I, I, I, I am like, "Although I'm trying to help, but like there's n- things are not that well with me." 25:59 A- and so she gave me this, like, motivational boost, uh, making myself believe in me, myself again and, like, dream big and, and, uh, you know, not give up. 26:11 And, and, and after that, like, things just started sort of, uh, falling i- in place. Uh, I did go to something different I started doing. I went to the Toastmaster club, uh, you know- Oh... the, the conversation club. 26:23 And, um, but after that, there was this, another story that I share, and I like to share it too. It's I was, um... A- again, I still felt a bit low. 26:33 Uh, um, and I, I was at Safeway putting groceries in my trunk, and then I hear the car stops behind me, and just, like, it stays there. I was like, okay. 26:43 So I turned around, and then there is, like, a older lady sitting in a car and, uh, uh, she's like, "Hi." So I'm saying, "Hi." And then she passes me the envelope and she said, "This is for you." 26:53 And I was suspiciously looking as like, "You know, are you sure it's for me?" And she's like, "This is for you." So I take the envelope, and then she just drives off. And then I, I, I don't know what to do. 27:04 You know, like, I'm, I don't [laughs] like all kinds of thought, uh, what if it's dangerous for me in some sort of... What... So I'm, like, carefully trying to open it, you know? 27:14 And then I open it and, uh, just to find out that there is, like, a small, like, envelope with like a, a card, uh, with, with a gift card inside for, like, Tim Hortons. 27:25 But then on that, uh, Tim Hortons card, uh, there was a, a quote, um, "The, the only difference between stumbling blocks and stepping stones is the way you see them." Gosh. And, 27:39 and, and, uh, like, I still can't explain why that happened to me and how that happened to me. Gosh. But that was, like, so timely. Um, and so that was, like, a final boost. I was like, "You know what? I can do it." 27:52 And then the, the whole- Damn... like, second, second year of school, I was just, like, so driven, going to all of the, like, networking events. Uh, I ended up having, like, three part-time jobs. 28:04 And it does seem like a lot, but I wasn't really doing, like, maybe two hours a week. But it, it made me feel busy, made me believe in myself. So then when... 28:14 Well, it's, so sorry, I took a long route to answer your question. But then, um- No, that's okay... 28:18 graduating, uh, with a diploma, going to the second, uh, the end of the second year, I applied only for four jobs with four banks, but I got the interviews everywhere because, again, I, I learned that I need to, uh, write my resume in different way. 28:31 I need to find someone i- in the company, uh, uh, seek for referrals. Um, and yeah, like I, I, I really strongly believed in, uh, what, what I want to do, uh, a- and why I, why I can do it. 28:47 So then I was at a place where I could pick, you know, which job I wanna take now. And, uh, so at that time, I landed a job with RBC, and so I've, I've been with them, uh, ever since. 28:59 [laughs] Man, Dennis, that story you just told me now, I'm getting chills. Like, what? Like, you don't know her from anywhere? Yeah. I, I never met her again, but I still have the card. Damn. 29:15 Yeah, you should keep that card. You should tell that that card, you should frame it and keep it because, like, that is some story, man. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm, I'm really fortunate, I guess, to... 29:27 I don't know how that happened, but it, it was really, you know... It, it just a quote, but just the way it came into my life and- Yes... and the, the time [laughs] also. Yes. Mm-hmm. Wow. 29:42 I want, I wanna talk about your RBC experience at RBC as an immigrant and how it shows up in your work, but I want to first ask something. There's something you mentioned. 29:50 If you had to describe the difference between job hunting in Ukraine versus job hunting in Ca- in Canada, like what's d- what's the difference? I think the, the major one, um, is the way you write your resume and, um, 30:07 just the, the approach to positioning yourself. Like in Ukraine, I would just focus on all my biggest achievements, and then regardless where, w- where they were, wh- like what kind of job they were. 30:18 But, and I would sort of have that sort of like one resume, but it just, like, has all the heavy hitters, you know, like all the best things about me.And then I would sort of, in my mind, I would be like, "Here, employer, look at me," and you make a decision if I sort of, uh, can do this job. 30:35 But then in Canada, it's a bit different and it sort of makes sense to me too. Like, you have to focus on the job itself, um, and show the necessary skills that you have, uh, for the job. 30:47 So you ma- you, you're doing it for the employer. You need to show them whether you can- Yeah... uh, or cannot through the experiences or through your skill set. 30:57 So it's slightly-- And that's why it takes more time to sort of write the resume, that's why you have to tailor it even when it's- Mm-hmm... a similar job. Uh, but that definitely gives you more traction. 31:09 And, uh, that's a part of the job right now, uh, of my, I guess, of my role as well. And, uh, I do see more traction from people who I help with this type of advice. 31:21 Uh, and it's, it's pretty common, but still a lot of newcomers when they come, it's hard to like, you know, step back and not mention some of your biggest achievements because y- they might be not relevant, but y- you know, like you really want to, to mention it because you're proud of yourself for that, but... 31:37 Yeah. So now, now that you've mentioned, well, now that you talk about that, can you tell me a bit more about your job, like what you do? I know you do some work, I know, I know you do some work with newcomers- Mm-hmm... 31:46 in Canada for RBC, but like what is, what does that mean? How do you all do it? What do you all do? Just that sort of thing. So i- it, it was a bit... Again, I'll take a little detour maybe- That's okay... 32:00 before I just jump to, to, to, to my role. 32:02 Um, something I like to mention, uh, overall that, to my surprise, when I started working with RBC, I was still on a work permit, and, um, there is a separate HR team that helps this, uh, foreign workers. 32:16 So they connected with me, and they asked me like what's my next step? Am I applying for permanent residency? Uh, am I applying this way or that way? Do I need any kind of documents? 32:25 And I was like, "Whoa, I haven't even thought about it." [laughs] You know, my work permit was three years. But they really sort of like pushed me and provided s-some information. So that, that was really helpful. 32:36 Um, so I, I did appreciate RBC on that side, and I hope some other companies have that too, but, um, don't want to [chuckles] point fingers. 32:47 [laughs] But, uh, o- other part that sort of changed my mind about, uh, like self-esteem, I guess. When I started working, I, I still was, uh, a bit skeptical about my accent and, I don't know, the, the 33:02 way I choose to express myself. 33:04 And then when I learned that, you know, there are so many other colleagues who are also newcomers to Canada, and some of them much stronger accent or, you know, maybe grammar is not on the same level a- as I would personally like to be for myself. 33:20 Uh, and they were like employee of the month or, you know, like having high achievements within the bank. So that was really encouraging to see that. 33:28 Like i- i- if, if, if you know how to connect with people, how to, uh, perform, how to do your job well, uh, like side things like accent or s- you know, the words that you choose to express yourself, they are not a- as important. 33:43 So that definitely was sort of a boost. But now coming into what I do, um, in my role, which is, uh, you know, I, I lead a team of, uh, newcomer, uh, specialist advisors. Um, so we have teams like this across Canada. 34:00 There are about 15 teams. And so our whole goal is to be connected with newcomer clients and newcomer serving organizations. And, uh, 34:08 we do provide banking support, so in terms of like opening accounts if, if you need to. But, uh, it's a, it's different way. We, we don't have this like pressure of like having only one hour. 34:19 Uh, we're more flexible when we want to meet, where we want, uh, or the client wants to meet, or whether you bank with RBC or not. 34:26 You just want to talk about something, about questions about finance, we're happy to answer that. 34:32 Because like financial literacy is really the way we connect with newcomers and newcomer organizations, 'cause for them, you know, it's a important part of, of sort of settlement process, right? Yes. 34:43 Understanding the banking system, not making mistakes, which I'm pretty sure most of us did or maybe didn't use all of the opportunities that were there. 34:52 Um, a- and so th- that, that, that, that's like what drives us, uh, to connect with, uh, immigration agencies or service providers. We, again, uh, host different type of workshops, uh, or info sessions. 35:06 And I find that quite fulfilling, um, because yes, you do help, uh, people, but also for myself personally i- in terms of, uh, job experience, it's a, it's a fun role to be at 'cause every week is different. 35:20 Uh, it depends on how, how you plan it. Like, sort of you, you c- create opportunities for yourself. You've connected with a new service provider, you plan something with them. It's a lot of, uh, relationship management. 35:33 But again, you still have this, uh, you support newcomers further and sometimes they become your friends and they... 35:41 Like I had so many instances when the- I helped the person to open account, but then he started working for a staffing agency, and then he reached out back to me, and then we did the workshop together. 35:51 Be- just because y- y- it's like a big, uh, you know, it's a big village. It's-- Calgary- Yes... is a big city, but it's still a big village. It's all- Yes... very well connected. 36:01 And it's cool to be a part of this like, uh, ecosystem, if you wish. Yes. That's so beautiful. I mean, I like, I like the idea about immigrant helping immigrants find themselves. 36:13 I think the last question I have for you is, is, um, and it might be a two-pronged question, but I'll see if I can just ask it as one question, which is basically like seeing all you're doing right now, the, the access to information you have, and the various kind of immigrants you've spoken to who are trying to find themselves, like if you had to de-If you had to talk about the how to hit the ground running playbook for someone who's just coming to Canada, like what are the, 36:37 the top three, four things they need to kind of keep top of mind as they're trying to settle in? Hmm. That's a loaded question. [laughs] Uh, 36:52 a-as a banker, I want to reply to you that it depends on your needs, right? Like understanding what your priorities are, um- And that's fair. That-- his reply as an immigrant banker, that's okay. 37:03 [laughs] Um, because like really, you know, you might have a family or you might be by yourself, you might be-- you might ne-need to travel or w- I, I-- there are, there are many aspects, but I, I guess there are sort of still some common things that I, I could suggest. 37:20 And, uh, just looking back from m-my own experience is, um, 37:28 I, I'd say connecting with the, uh, community, uh, with your own community is important because there are people who been there, been there, done that, uh, and they can share some of the information that you might know. 37:42 So that's like you work smart, not hard. You know, you, you fi- you find someone who, who's done some of the mistakes and can help you. 37:50 And that can be, uh, you know, uh, any cultural organizations or maybe immigration agencies like, uh, CCAS or, uh, Immigrant Services Co. 38:01 You know, they, they, they, they all have those s-free services and, uh, counselors who are willing to help you. And then again, they will do this need assessment. 38:09 So I feel like the main important part is like to, to stay connected, to not, uh, feel like you're alone, because I know it's hard sometimes to do that first step and just go to the new place, new organization, and just ask for help. 38:23 But there are a lot of people who understand exactly how you feel, and they are normally, uh, looking to help. Even at, at my team, all of my teammates are newcomers. 38:33 Uh, and again, like, yes, we are bankers, but we rarely start talking to a person just about banking, like straight up, because it, it, it's really not... 38:44 Like, yes, it's important to, to have the answers, but it-it's, it's not the way you connect with someone, and it's- Yeah... definitely not the way as to keep someone as a client. 38:54 Um, sorry, again, I answered in two, two different directions. Yeah. 38:59 [laughs] But I, I, I guess, again, to su-sum it up, it-it's just like staying connected and maybe connecting with several places like cultural groups, church, i- or wha-wha-wha- whichever you-- whatever suits you best, but not staying alone and staying connected to people who, um, are there, willing to support you. 39:18 And there are a lot of them to everyone's surprise, I guess. But that's the part I like about Calgary. Yeah. 39:25 Um, kind of building on that, this is prob- this is probably just a follow-up question, and I think you've talked about this a bit across different places, across parts of the conversation, but like what are some of the things you see that immigrants get wrong or struggle with, or newcomers get wrong or struggle with when they just come to, to Calgary or when they just come to meet you? 39:46 Hmm. There, there are some, I guess, myths that you can find online about certain, um, so just, just information specific, right? Like about banking or about some government programs. 40:00 So, um, that, that's, I guess, a common mistake to not verify your information or to, uh, just trust- Mm... one source. You know, it's e- unfortunately, sometimes even-- And that's something that comes to me as, 40:19 I guess, as a professional i-in a ba- in a banker role than, uh, also, uh, being graduating from SAIT where there was like a heavy emphasis on, uh, what it means to be a professional, uh, salesperson. 40:32 Like, 'cause everyone thinks of sales as like, as a negative part. I don't know, like there is a, a little bit of that, but, but it-it's really like, I guess it's more of a name. 40:42 You, you just, you really are there to solve problems for people, uh, in, in a way that, in that industry that you can. 40:49 And so coming from there, like you, you, you still don't have the same experience whether you go in, in any of big five banks, you know, in one branch you might get slightly better or fuller, uh, advice. 41:04 So that's why e-even when you like reach out to this, uh, sort of trusted advice, uh, providers, I, I would still, you know, look for a second opinion. 41:13 And I think this is a big part for a lot of newcomers because a lot of further actions or steps that they m-make are based off that initial information, uh, which sometimes, you know, is not correct. 41:25 So like, do your homework and then do it again. Um- Mm. I'd, I'd say that would be my big, uh, big, big advice because I don't wanna pinpoint like one single thing. Yeah. Yeah, I get. Um. I get. Mm-hmm. 41:38 But that's a good point because, ah, gosh, like we are [laughs] y-that's so true. Like y-you-- people, people just talk, say stuff, and if you're not careful, they either give you outdated information 41:53 or stuff that worked for them, doesn't mean it's gonna work for you because you have a, you have a different circumstance, you have different issues, you, you have different stuff you need to solve for, you know. 42:03 So I like the idea of do your homework and then do it again. [laughs] Yeah. And yes, it does take some time, and you don't always have it when you just arrive. 42:12 Um, but it's something that you need to be ready that like, you know, you're the first, uh, um, 42:18 time in Canada, whatever it is, like two months or half a year or a year, but it, it will be a bit more challenging, and it's important to, yes, remember to enjoy this, uh, new, uh, place, but also to stay focused on, on your goals 'cause I definitely done that. 42:37 I was like traveling al-almost every second weekend to mountains and, and now, now I don't even remember when the last time when was-- when I went to Banff or something like that. [laughs] But- All right. 42:48 Thank you so much, Denis. This was so good. Um, thank you. It was really good talking to you about your story and how RWC is helping, helping immigrants find themselves. Thank you so much. Thank you, Moses. 42:59 Thanks for the invite. You're a great host. It was a pleasure- [laughs]... chatting with you as well. Yes, indeed. 43:03 I still can't stop thinking about the story he said of the lady who gave him a gift card and something that had a quote on it. Like, gosh, like, like how did that even happen? Like, [laughs] 43:15 you know, we tend to rationalize everything, so maybe that's what I'm trying to do, but maybe some things are just irrational. We can't-- they can't be explained. 43:22 But thank you so much for getting to this point of the podcast, of this video. Please like, share with your friends who will find this useful. 43:29 If you know someone who would enjoy this or who will find this useful, please share with them. If you have someone who you think we should talk to, please send them our way and I'll reach out to them myself. 43:39 Thank you so much and have a beautiful day. [outro jingle]
